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macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

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Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#261
post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

They've got enough market clout now that people will port Ruby/Python/Perl to a non-Unix macOS, just as they port them to Microsoft Windows. Ruby on Windows is a nightmare. To be specific, Ruby itself (the core language and core libraries) are pretty good on Windows. Great choice for a scripting language, or whatever else you want to do. But libraries like ActiveRecord, Rails and their myriad dependencies are very ve…

> But libraries like ActiveRecord, Rails and their myriad dependencies are very very hit or miss on Windows and there's not a lot of support when things go badly.

I haven't done Rails for a while, but when I did Rails (including ActiveRecord and all its other components) Just Worked o bWibdows (lots of the peripheral ecosystem of Rails and Ruby more generally was a nightmare, but Rails itself was great), and overall the Ruby (outside of Rails) experience on Windows has gotten better with Ruby installer + DevKit, which hasn't closed all the gaps but does mean that even libraries with C extensions frequently just gem install and work on Windows; I'd be surprised if Rails itself had gotten worse in this area.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#262

It's interesting to me that this is happening in the same month that Microsoft made installing modern Python as easy as typing Python and then clicking "install". One more piece of evidence that Microsoft cares about developers more than Apple does.

> It's interesting to me that this is happening in the same month that Microsoft made installing modern Python as easy as typing Python and then clicking "install".

You still need admin rights and an internet setup. Linux is still king.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, macOS comes with Python 2.7 and without pip. For any serious, modern , Python development you need to install Python 3 yourself.

Again the word "serious" is there telling me people are absolutely aloof to the kinds of new developers there are and what it's like to be a non programmer.

Why would a new programmer want to start with a deprecated language?

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#264
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's teaching a new generation of coders a set of tools designed only for Apple. Ruby (Python etc) are open and easily available on other platforms, Swift may be in the future but it isn't now.

How about using a web browser with JavaScript? Maybe not the best language for someone new but its widely available.

How about just a web browser?

You can run almost any language from a web browser these days:

https://repl.it/languages/

A lot of educational sites offer embedded interpreters like this.

It has never been easier to start to learn programming. The real challenge nowadays is maintaining attention...

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#265
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain further why you think Homebrew should not be used?

Because it is unusable in multi-user environments as it installs packages as your "ordinary" user instead of root.

It's called a personal computer for a reason. Laptop sharing is not a really a thing for professionals (or at least not that common). So, complete non issue for the vast majority of the target audience (i.e. developers and techies). Actually, not requiring root permissions is a feature and not a bug as it reduces the scope of what these tools can do at the OS level, which is a good thing for software you blindly install after downloading.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#266
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's honestly terrible for newbies. If they try to use it, there's no pip included. So then they easy_install all their libraries which installs things into different places than most python devs will be used to. Or they easy_install pip first. But even still, everything is installing to system paths, so when they try to install things it fails with permission errors. They find a stack overflow post that says just "s…

you can always brew uninstall and reinstall later if you need a different version That is the wrong way to do it. Just install pyenv/pipenv to manage different Python versions. It's dead simple to maintain system Python, Python 2.7x, and Python3.7.3 that way.

Wrong way? I’ve used this method successfully for years.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good grief. What's wrong with going to www.python.org/downloads/ and clicking the big button at the top that says "Download the latest version for Mac OS X"? If you can't even download an installer and run it, then yeah, maybe not quite ready for programming either. Please forgive my snark, but this would be exactly my thought process as a reasonably competent computer user who wanted to learn Python.

He’s right though. When I was six years old, learning to program involved turning on the computer and typing 10 print “hello” run That’s what I want for my kids. And there’s nothing even remotely like it in today’s world.

When you were 6 years old is a different time from now. You probably did not have an always-on connection. There was probably no such thing as Web 2.0. Computers were more difficult to use. Google did not exist. The Internet was perhaps still taking off...

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#268
Sounds like these runtimes will still be available via a separate download, similar to how Git and other CLI tools download when you first try to use them. Not a big deal. Makes it easier for folks who want newer versions and avoid any strange behavior with coexisting with the built-in runtimes.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#269
post #251
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different time. Now you got Homebrew

Which installs itself based on the system Ruby. Will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Like it works now with older versions of macOS and on Linux: it downloads a Ruby binary when it's not available on the host system.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but it's very rare to update python on the desktop (not on the server). Installing a new version in parallel is common, but once you get a 3.x rolling, you seldom have the need for a 3.x.y unless you encounter a bug or are very security conscious. On the other hand, installing xcode is really a pain.

I try to keep the version of Python my personal computer is using up-to-date; I don't think this is a particularly uncommon thing?

It really is. Like backups. Or unit tests.

Good pratices != common practices.

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