I think that's ok, most everyone installs homebrew
They should choose a package manager.
It's called the App Store.
macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
121–130 of 450 posts
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apple could solve this problem by including python3 with macOS...
They sure could, but is it worthy to maintain an alternative package and deployment system for which you have no use yourself? Will employees be careful and committed to something useless for their jobs? They previously deprecated Java runtime for similar reasons. And I can’t really blame them, roadmap is crystal clear now, they prefer to assign ressources to develop Swift/Swift UI and improve tooling for native code…
I agree overall, but I do think it's a little sad that you can no longer open a Terminal and start writing Python. I think this legitimately matters in terms of increasing overall tech and programming literacy.
Mind, there's still a command line and shell built-in, which I consider far more important.
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#123So, what's the point of using Macs as a better Linux, if they are continuing to strip out the parts of Linux that are useful? Might as well use WSL or Cygwin and save a bunch of money.
You do realise that the reason these things are being stripped out is because macOS includes hideously old versions for backwards compatibility with older software that depended on them, right? There is no real loss here; no sane users would use the built-in versions due to their age. It has been preferable to download and install newer versions for a long time, this changes nothing. And if it's fine to spend a tiny…
> And if it's fine to spend a tiny amount of effort to install WSL or Cygwin on Windows
Well, plenty of people use macOS precisely because it was like a more consistent Linux out-of-the-box. Apple will lose a ton of mindshare; indeed, they are losing a ton of mindshare. They've been slowly deprecating things for years, now, and leaving the rest to rot, and open source developers are increasingly drifting away.
About 10 years ago macOS and Apple hardware started becoming the preferred kit for open source developers, and this showed--Apple kit was seen everywhere in Silicon Valley and eventually became the default kit given out by big software companies. That was all because of macOS' Unix personality. That's all going to change over the next several years.
I was surprised when WSL 1.0 debuted. By making Linux _native_ on Windows, it solidified Linux' position as the dominate server-side platform. I'm not at all surprised they're ditching it for WSL 2.0, which is just Linux in a VM with a networked filesystem, precisely what people have been doing for about 15 years, keeping it solidly second class--like running Windows on macOS.
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#124With brew as the de-facto package manager for macOS this is a great move. Having Python and Ruby bundled with macOS is confusing when trying to install "regular" versions of the software through brew or other methods. Because the default installation can't updated without updating the OS, the system versions are not useful for most developers.
You're joking, right? Brew is NOT the de-facto package manager, macoports is. Learn what "de-facto" means. Brew is a fucking trainwreck that shits all over "/" and has a tendency to break existing critical features while failing to stay up to date. I wouldn't touch it again with a 10 foot pole, and actively discourage people from using it.
On the other hand, actually trying to use MacPorts when one is accustomed to package managers like apt is an exercise in extreme patience.
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#125I'm trying to understand how these two points reconcile. "Future versions of macOS won’t include scripting language runtimes by default" and "Use of Python 2.7 isn’t recommended as this version is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future versions of macOS won’t include Python 2.7. Instead, it’s recommended that you run python3 from within Terminal." If Catalina is the last version with any scripting languages at all, why bother with the second point? Or will python3 still be available in the future despite point 1?
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
They've got enough market clout now that people will port Ruby/Python/Perl to a non-Unix macOS, just as they port them to Microsoft Windows. Ruby on Windows is a nightmare. To be specific, Ruby itself (the core language and core libraries) are pretty good on Windows. Great choice for a scripting language, or whatever else you want to do. But libraries like ActiveRecord, Rails and their myriad dependencies are very ve…
The funny thing is I have been a rails dev for years and didn't even know it didn't work on windows because I have never tried and don't know any dev ever using windows.
In the early days of rails say 2006, it was definitely more common place... but I guess there were fewer of us back then ... I know as a maintainer of curb I have a few windows users
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
A hypervisor is not exactly a container. Definitely not in the Linux sense. It may be more secure, but it is also slower. Further, there's no decent solution for shipping a macOS container image to run in a VM. Linux, yes, Mac, no. Finally, good luck getting your virtualized macOS app to interact reasonably with your main OS (no drag and drop, no OpenGL, etc.). I would rather chroot.
How much slower?
Not much slower than, say, Hyper-V or Virtualbox or other hypervisors that live alongside a general purpose desktop OS. Remember, they're using the same Intel chips and VT-d and such as anything else; as long as you have enough CPU power it's going to run fine.
IIRC the Docker implementation for OS X runs a tiny, carefully-configured Linux VM transparently in the background. This isn't that dissimilar from the Windows Subsystem for Linux from a user standpoint.
I've done plenty of Docker work on OS X; the only real weirdness is that you're running Linux in the containers and OS X outside. Eventually, though, before switching completely to a native Linux desktop, I moved deeper into the containers and would barely ever see the OS X command prompt any more.
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
In other words, nothing serious. Does anyone actually use Docker on Mac? Xhyve is more of a proof-of-concept than a production-ready tool.
> Does anyone actually use Docker on Mac? I use it extensively. It is a desktop product however; it you aren't expected to put a swarm of MacBook pros into production.
Ah, but if the XServe had not died and datacenters had racks of these things, there'd no doubt be a production quality implementation by now. Shame.
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#129Civ IV will never work again. RIP.
Why is that?
Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Learning how to install Python and Pip should be part of the learning process for newbies.
I'm sure that my kids will certainly love to hear that they have to learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python. It's all part of the "learning process for newbies."
> learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python
I definitely understand that the installation process for things like python can be confusing to non-programmers, but I think this is a bit disingenuous. You don't have to learn a build system to install it; python was the first programming language I ever learned, and I used it years before I ever even had any idea what a build system is.