Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac • Hacker News Board

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#201

Post by ianlevesque » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

pfooti wrote: post #188

farisjarrah wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shout out to the fish shell which can do all the fancy syntax highlighting and show command options out the box with no plugins

I used fish for a while, but the fact that it is a clear break from bash / sh syntax for things like chaining and redirecting made my reflexes all wrong. I'd type `dothis && dothat` and fish would just say, "umm, I think you mean `dothis and dothat`", or I'd have to use a bash subshell to run some command someone else wrote with some fiddly find syntax piping to xargs. So I just switched to zsh. Less cool name, but m…

They caved and support that syntax now in fish.

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#202

Post by dcbadacd » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #190

musicale wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect Macs in enterprise/education are locked down so that Gatekeeper and SIP can't be turned off by normal users. But preventing ALL Macs from turning off Gatekeeper and SIP? I think that would be unpopular.

A company or school can already do this easily, by the way, by setting a boot-loader password and restricting admin access. Notably, this are normal macOS functions, you don't need a fancy mtm setup.

That would violate GPLv3, wouldn't it?

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#203

Post by velcrovan » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

skykooler wrote: post #187

m_mueller wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've moved on to Windows since last year. Besides terminal emulators being shit (which they're fixing now), worse PDF support and shit OS config management, there's really not much anymore that goes in favor of Macs. Their laptops are worthless junk at 40% markup, the OS gets buggier and more locked down with every version while Windows is on a clear trajectory of improvement and PC hardware gives real choice and inn…

My biggest problem with Windows is that you can't scroll in a window or a pane without clicking on it first. Both Mac and Linux support that and it makes the OS feel so clunky.

Yeah, Windows can actually do that now.

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#204

Post by plorkyeran » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #175

saagarjha wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reason doesn't make sense, though: I can modify, replace, and overwrite the bash that comes with the system, and self sign it with a certificate of my choosing.

How do you make a certificate to self sign without going through Apple?

You only need Apple's help if you want to be able to run the binary on another machine without installing your cert on that machine.

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#205

Post by plorkyeran » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

lostmyoldone wrote: post #164

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SIP and Gatekeeper and one-time commands. I find disabling SIP to be much less painful than enabling unsigned drivers in Windows. I wouldn't even classify turning off SIP as "slightly tricky". You boot into recovery mode, open the terminal, type in two words, and press enter. Besides, this is separate from the GPLv3 question. You can absolutely recompile bash and replace macOS's version with your own, so I don't unde…

It's not a problem, yet. But I would argue that it's quite clear from Apple's actions the last ~5 years that they really want to make Mac OS behave as iOS as much as possible, including making it impossible for regular users to run arbitrary non app store software. I know it sounds crazy, but they have for years now been taking steps - like this - which nobody seems to find a rational cause for, but which step by ste…

You can't think of a single rational cause for requiring code signing by default other than them wanting to lock down the system? It's a huge security gain for normal users, and helps application developers by encouraging normal users to trust third-party applications rather than being terrified they'll get malware if they install any non-apple software.

It's certainly possible that Apple has intentions other than to make the platform better and a discussion can be had on if the tradeoffs are worth it, but it's ridiculous to claim that there are zero benefits to anyone but Apple.

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#206

Post by cferr » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

PascLeRasc wrote: post #22

youeseh wrote: post #13

For the uninitiated: why is zsh better than bash?

Tab autocompletion, especially for command-line flags, is great. Try it out with 'ls - ' and you'll see all the options and a description. The z command to cd to common directories without typing the full path seems useful, but I've never gotten it to work.

You can setup command-line flag completion in bash as well. For example, on my Linux systems I have this line in my .bashrc to autocomplete systemd unit file names for when I run systemctl:

  complete -W "$(systemctl list-unit-files|cut -f1 -d' '|tail -n+2|head -n-2)" systemctl

Bash also allows you to cd to common directories, but again, you have to set it up. You set the CDPATH variable to one or more paths, and then you can cd to relative subdirectories without typing out the absolute path.

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#207

Post by skykooler » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

eMSF wrote: post #189

skykooler wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest problem with Windows is that you can't scroll in a window or a pane without clicking on it first. Both Mac and Linux support that and it makes the OS feel so clunky.

That's actually one of the better new features in Windows 10 (that you can these days scroll an inactive window).

Oh, really? I might give it a try again one of these days, then.

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#208

Post by Wowfunhappy » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

dcbadacd wrote: post #202

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company or school can already do this easily, by the way, by setting a boot-loader password and restricting admin access. Notably, this are normal macOS functions, you don't need a fancy mtm setup.

That would violate GPLv3, wouldn't it?

IANAL, but I really don't think so. On a company laptop, the company owns the laptop, and the company can lock it down as much or as little as they want.

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#209

Post by Wowfunhappy » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

plorkyeran wrote: post #205

lostmyoldone wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a problem, yet. But I would argue that it's quite clear from Apple's actions the last ~5 years that they really want to make Mac OS behave as iOS as much as possible, including making it impossible for regular users to run arbitrary non app store software. I know it sounds crazy, but they have for years now been taking steps - like this - which nobody seems to find a rational cause for, but which step by ste…

You can't think of a single rational cause for requiring code signing by default other than them wanting to lock down the system? It's a huge security gain for normal users, and helps application developers by encouraging normal users to trust third-party applications rather than being terrified they'll get malware if they install any non-apple software. It's certainly possible that Apple has intentions other than to…

I can't think of a single (non-malicious) rational cause for requiring code signing by default and making the requirement impossible for the user to disable.

We're talking about what Apple could be planning that would violate the GPLv3. As long as the signing can be disabled by the user, there shouldn't be a GPLv3 violation.

Re: Use zsh as the default shell on your Mac

#210

Post by ballenf » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

skykooler wrote: post #187

m_mueller wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've moved on to Windows since last year. Besides terminal emulators being shit (which they're fixing now), worse PDF support and shit OS config management, there's really not much anymore that goes in favor of Macs. Their laptops are worthless junk at 40% markup, the OS gets buggier and more locked down with every version while Windows is on a clear trajectory of improvement and PC hardware gives real choice and inn…

My biggest problem with Windows is that you can't scroll in a window or a pane without clicking on it first. Both Mac and Linux support that and it makes the OS feel so clunky.

But in MacOS, typing doesn't follow the mouse by default. So you're scrolling away in a window you don't realize is inactive. Then go to close a tab or type and you've just closed a tab in a random application two monitors away. And it can be hit-or-miss whether you realize which application you just interacted with (or where you just inserted characters into your code).