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Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

nytimes.com

171–180 of 309 posts

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is your evidence? I cited mine above. My evidence is the congressional record which indicates republican politicians overwhelmingly oppose NN and democratic politicians overwhelmingly support it. I wouldn't regard a single post on a subreddit as evidence; it is at best an anecdote, and one of dubious credibility IMO.

> congressional record Politicians do what their constituents want now? That's new. > I wouldn't regard a single post on a subreddit as evidence Visit [1]. See the spike in the graph? That is the link I posted above. It is not anecdotal. As I said, this is the most upvoted comment ever removed from that sub. [1] https://revddit.com/r/the_donald

> Politicians do what their constituents want now? That's new.

Clearly there is a strong correlation between political identity and the politicians that are elected to represent those identities since democrats overwhelmingly vote for candidates that support NN and republicans overwhelmingly vote for candidates that oppose it. This is pretty simple to verify based on the congressional voting record, the machinations of subreddit shit-posting is wholly irrelevant.

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with chargebacks is that they're mandatory, even in cases where the seller is more trustworthy than the buyer. Then you end up with all the losses associated with buyer fraud even if the overwhelming majority of legitimate buyers would have enough faith in the seller to waive the ability to conduct a chargeback in exchange for a discount in the amount of the fee that has to be charged to cover them. The f…

> The problem with chargebacks is that they're mandatory, even in cases where the seller is more trustworthy than the buyer. Then you end up with all the losses associated with buyer fraud even if the overwhelming majority of legitimate buyers would have enough faith in the seller to waive the ability to conduct a chargeback in exchange for a discount in the amount of the fee that has to be charged to cover them. Thi…

> This is actually accounted for in the merchant interchange rate. It varies by MCC and potentially merchant to merchant and the frequency of chargebacks is built into how much the merchant pays for processing.

But the number of chargebacks is as much related to the frequency of buyer fraud in that industry rather than anything the merchant can control. If it's all buyer fraud then the rate is high, but how do you solve that other than by moving the liability back to the buyer?

> Merchants may offer cash or other payment method discounts, so in a sense, what you're asking for already exists.

It exists in person, but where's the equivalent that allows you to pay cash over the internet? Cryptocurrency, maybe, and now we're back to monopolies and market share because you can't really accept something people aren't familiar with and don't know how to use.

> If someone has a number of chargebacks, the customer is investigated and has their account suspended or charged with fraud.

One of the most common sources of chargebacks is identity theft. Someone makes a purchase on a stolen card and then the real cardholder gets the bill and disputes the charge. The merchant in that case did nothing wrong but has to eat the loss, even when the identity theft was enabled by the cardholder's negligence. Then we get more such negligence, and lose the demand-side market pressure for higher security like two factor authentication and replacing credit card numbers with public keys that could have prevented the fraud, which increases costs for everyone.

But investigating the customer whose name is on the account does you no good in that case, because even if it was proximately their fault, it wasn't them who actually committed the fraud and it won't be their name on the account next time when some other negligent customer carelessly gives all their information to a fraudster because it costs them nothing to do so.

> Again, merchants and buyers are aligned in this case, both make money on greater transaction volume, this feature increases transaction volume, that's why it's there, otherwise it wouldn't be there.

It's there because the credit card companies don't give customers the choice.

> Also, paying per-transaction isn't really insurance as it leads to massive adverse selection risk.

All insurance leads to adverse risk selection. That's the nature of insurance. It's why you can't buy life insurance when you're 114 years old. Should we force them to sell it anyway and then make everyone else pay for it?

> The most helpful chargeback for me personally was a two thousand dollar chargeback against Expedia where they refused to refund a refundable ticket. I filed a chargeback and I got the money back within a few days.

And you would have otherwise had to take them to small claims court, which would have been more inconvenient.

Meanwhile if you paid 3% more on purchases totaling $200,000 over the last decade due to the increased buyer fraud, have you really come out ahead?

> It's a good thing, unless you've got data to back your case.

We would have the data if we gave people the choice.

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#173
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I find your examples convincing. MS still firmly monopolizes desktop OS (over 85% market share there). Sure, that market has lost weight due to the rise of mobile, but last I checked we're all still doing our day jobs on desktop computers, and for most office workers (who aren't developers), that's synonymous with working on a Windows machine. For 20-30 years people have had effectively no freedom to cho…

Marketshare != Monopolizing Microsoft would have to be doing anticompetitive behavior to be monopolizing the desktop market. Things such as forcing OEMs to not allow linux support, or banning iTunes installation on Windows. Simply being popular isn't the same as a monopoly. Apple has, on the other hand, been monopolizing their iOS devices with the app store. It is the only way to install apps on iOS and Apple has pla…

Well, I’m that case Microsoft has been monopolizing their XBox’s as well as Nintendo and Sony with their consoles since you can’t buy physical or digital games without the respective owner’s approval.

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#174
post #98

In my career, first it was IBM, the unstoppable juggernaut that was going to take over the world. Then it was Microsoft, and everyone forgot about IBM. Then it was Apple, and everyone forgot about Microsoft. Before IBM, it was RCA. Everyone has forgotten about RCA. It's like in retail. First it's Sears, the unstoppable juggernaut that will take over the world. Then it's Walmart, and Sears is bankrupt. Now it's Amazon…

> It's almost as if the theory that monopolies inevitably grow to take over the world has serious problems. That's a straw man. No one is saying monopolies are immortal. An economy where monopoly usurps monopoly, one after the other in a continuous cycle is a problem, too. If you want a real debate, make the case that the world wouldn't be better off if these tech giants were split up like Ma Bell was in the 1950's a…

If you had multiple social networks, people would still aggregate toward one. That’s kind of the definition of a network.

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be joking. It was front page here and r/technology for months before net neutrality was repealed. There is no question that public support for net neutrality is broad and bipartisan. The only question that remains is which 2020 candidates will stand up to say they support net neutrality.

> general public > front page of r/technology If you think the average person follows r/technology, you may live in a bubble.

Point is people who understand NN support it. I did not mean to imply non-techies get it, only that when they do, they largely support it.

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#176
post #166

In my career, first it was IBM, the unstoppable juggernaut that was going to take over the world. Then it was Microsoft, and everyone forgot about IBM. Then it was Apple, and everyone forgot about Microsoft. Before IBM, it was RCA. Everyone has forgotten about RCA. It's like in retail. First it's Sears, the unstoppable juggernaut that will take over the world. Then it's Walmart, and Sears is bankrupt. Now it's Amazon…

> It's almost as if the theory that monopolies inevitably grow to take over the world has serious problems :-) Even if they don't last forever they cause harm while they are around. The theory isn't that monopolies allow companies to last forever but that they prevent competition and harm consumers.

I know that it isn't binart but I can't help but note the irony: if they don't last forever and their demise isn't from obsolescence but a competitor isn't that a statement contradicting preventing competition?

One could be technically more precise and limit prevention to "full effectiveness in all in their domain" or use it loosely enough that simply making one potential competitor unable to set up due to lower margins or investment in efficency is not wrong in a pendantic sense separate from the legal definitions.

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's really an anti-trust problem, and I don't think you can call a majority of voters in an area a "cartel". It's a matter of giving the majority of residents/voters what they want, even if it's bad for them in the long run.

> I don't think that's really an anti-trust problem What kind of problem is it then? High prices being maintained by a purposeful conspiracy of existing owners to constrain supply sure sounds a lot like an antitrust problem. > It's a matter of giving the majority of residents/voters what they want, even if it's bad for them in the long run. But it's not necessarily bad for them . They make more money by monopolizing…

> What kind of problem is it then?

Regulatory capture?

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#178
So the companies that have more or less sprung up out of nowhere are...to blame for the economic stagnation of the middle class over the last 40 to 50 years?

Pardon the editorial but here we go again, politicians pinning the tail on the wrong donkey (i.e., spinning root causes out of symptoms and correlation); the voters will fall for it, and five to ten years down the road we'll all realize we wasted our time (as the root causes further strengthened their stranglehold).

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with chargebacks is that they're mandatory, even in cases where the seller is more trustworthy than the buyer. Then you end up with all the losses associated with buyer fraud even if the overwhelming majority of legitimate buyers would have enough faith in the seller to waive the ability to conduct a chargeback in exchange for a discount in the amount of the fee that has to be charged to cover them. Thi…

> This is actually accounted for in the merchant interchange rate. It varies by MCC and potentially merchant to merchant and the frequency of chargebacks is built into how much the merchant pays for processing. But the number of chargebacks is as much related to the frequency of buyer fraud in that industry rather than anything the merchant can control. If it's all buyer fraud then the rate is high, but how do you so…

> But the number of chargebacks is as much related to the frequency of buyer fraud in that industry rather than anything the merchant can control. If it's all buyer fraud then the rate is high, but how do you solve that other than by moving the liability back to the buyer?

You are. Retail price is adjusted to account for interchange which is adjusted to account for risk. Merchants can offer cash discounts.

> It's there because the credit card companies don't give customers the choice.

Again processors make money when transaction volume is higher. If this reduced transaction volume why would they do it?

> Meanwhile if you paid 3% more on purchases totaling $200,000 over the last decade due to the increased buyer fraud, have you really come out ahead?

Average merchant interchange is around 3% and there are 2% cash back cards, so it’s 1% net, meaning I’d be out $2000, so break even. Not to mention the interest-free one month loans, car rental insurance, loss insurance, warranty extensions and so on.

> We would have the data if we gave people the choice.

So you’re speculating in spite of the fact interests are currently aligned. And setting aside that the choice specifically exists for all brick and mortar merchants - so is there some reason they’re a poor sample?

Re: Antitrust Troubles Snowball for Tech Giants as Lawmakers Join In

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, simply being dominant in a market _is not_ being a monopoly. Monopolies are definitively the exclusive control or possession of the supply of the market. Just as a Monopsony is exclusive control or possession of the demand in a market. Microsoft has dominant market position but they do not control the entire supply of OS, hence they are the popular choice but not the exclusive choice. Whether or not a monopoly…

I'm not sure where you're getting your definitions, but they're not the ones used by the justice department. "An unlawful monopoly exists when one firm controls the market for a product or service, and it has obtained that market power, not because its product or service is superior to others, but by suppressing competition with anticompetitive conduct." [1] That's somewhat different from your definition in that it i…

That is because the DOJ website is only interested in defining lawful vs unlawful monopoly, not defining what a monopoly is.

The definition of the word "Monopoly" is already widely denoted as supply side control:

- Wikipedia: The exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly)

- Investopedia: A monopoly exists when a single entity is the sole provider of a particular asset or service. (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032415/whats-differ...)

- Oxford Dictionary: The exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service. (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/monopoly)

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