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Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

citylab.com

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Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#131

Post by btrettel »

pagnol wrote: post #124
btrettel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, those are often called "punishment passes". I've even had drivers pass me dangerously closely when I was riding 17 mph in a 15 mph zone with sharrows printed in the lane. I stop and speak with some of these drivers at the stop light, so I'm not even breaking the law and they literally save zero time. Far too many of these drivers seem surprised that the speed limit is 15 mph as they seem to think they should dri…

Oh wow, so it’s actually a thing. What kinds of responses do you get from drivers when you talk to them afterwards? Thanks also for mentioning the term ‘punishment pass’, googling this led me to some interesting blog posts.

You also might find the acronym MGIF (must get in front) to be interesting. I think it's mostly used by British cyclists.

If my memory serves, the responses range wildly. On one end you have completely reasonable and sincere sounding apologies that they accidentally passed me dangerously. Whether or not these were accidents, I don't know. On the other end you have the typical rants against cyclists. In the middle I might help convince bad drivers to treat cyclists nicer.

One time a driver I was speaking to seemed apologetic and some random pedestrian started screaming at me about how I shouldn't be telling drivers what to do. That guy was nuts.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#132

Post by u801e »

pagnol wrote: post #97
toast0 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have to get off the bike at most of my intersections and turns, I might as well take a bus, because I'll get there faster. It might make seem to be reasonable to have these protected lanes for slower? cyclists in addition to allowing vehicular cycling, but there are two problems with this: a) it encourages car drivers to assume bicycles should not be in the lanes; b) it discourages cyclists from joining the flow…

> a) it encourages car drivers to assume bicycles should not be in the lanes This is something I’m struggling with right now. The city where I live has a lot of mediocre or downright dangerous lanes for cyclists which are often very narrow and next to a column of parked cars so that riders can get hit by a suddenly opened door. When I then ride on the road instead, I often have to contend with car drivers who seem se…

> When I then ride on the road instead, I often have to contend with car drivers who seem seem to purposefully pass by very closely at high speeds

If you ride at the edge of the general purpose lane, then this is very likely to happen because drivers will believe their vehicle will fit between you and traffic in the adjacent lane. If you ride in the center (or between the center and left tire track) position in the lane, then practically all faster traffic will completely change lanes to pass you.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#133

Post by u801e »

Xylakant wrote: post #57
ben7799 wrote: post #40

As a long time long distance cyclist an awfully lot of these lanes, both protected and painted/"sharrow" are really frightening. There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. There are still major problems with their designs though, they are working from the assumption cyclists won't learn to follow the rules of the road. Tell me…

The issue is that protected bike lanes are not designed for you or me, I prefer riding in traffic, too. They are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women. For them the trade off works: spend a little more time on turns and crossings, be safe from cars overtaking close. In the end, it doesn’t even really matter if their fear is rational or not, it prevents that demographic from c…

> The Dutch have that figured out.

The problem is that the vast majority of motorists do not have significant experience riding a bicycle, so they don't know where to look for cyclists and will end up colliding with them when they pop out from behind parked cars within 30 feet of the intersection (when traveling at 20 feet per second).

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#134

Post by u801e »

btrettel wrote: post #95
ben7799 wrote: post #40

As a long time long distance cyclist an awfully lot of these lanes, both protected and painted/"sharrow" are really frightening. There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. There are still major problems with their designs though, they are working from the assumption cyclists won't learn to follow the rules of the road. Tell me…

> There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. I agree with this, at least for activists as I don't have much experience with researchers. Many people view bike lanes as some sort of panacea, and they sometimes end up making the situation worse than it would be otherwise for the exact reasons you mention. Just to give an example,…

> The coordinator told me that they plan to convert those bike lanes to protected bike lanes. I told them that the problem was the crossing between the bike lanes and the highway exits and onramps, not that the bike lane wasn't protected. Whenever Austin makes a protected bike lane, they don't protect the crossings, so a protected bike lane can't address the problems I have.

The only real way to protect the crossing is to protect it the same way that the crossing of I-35 is protected from the surface street you're riding on. That is, you need a grade separated interchange for cyclist traffic.

The other way would be to ignore the bike lane and ride in the center of the lane that you would use if you were driving a car through there.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#135

Post by dangjc »

godelski wrote: post #51

I bike commute all the time and I want to share an experience from yesterday that EVERY cyclist will get. (I live in the PNW, so there are a lot of people that bike here) I was sitting at a stop sign, in a lane that has sharrows. Waiting for a car to go by I feel a push from behind and get almost pushed into the car I'm waiting for (my hands aren't on the breaks, by feet are on the ground). Adrenaline skyrockets, I l…

[0] worst experience is that this guy cut me off, almost hitting me, I flipped him off and he proceeded to try to hit me with his car. As in he got behind me and came over into the bike lane. I bailed into the sidewalk and he hit the curb, then he drives off.

Cars are an incredibly anti-social medium. It creates a bubble of metal and glass around drivers making them think they're impervious and don't have to interact with other humans in socially acceptable ways. We really should have much harsher point systems for taking away driver licenses.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#136

Post by bamboozled »

ben7799 wrote: post #40

As a long time long distance cyclist an awfully lot of these lanes, both protected and painted/"sharrow" are really frightening. There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. There are still major problems with their designs though, they are working from the assumption cyclists won't learn to follow the rules of the road. Tell me…

Lowering speed limits to 40/30 km/h is a wise and better move in densely populated areas. It protects pedestrians too.

I think that’s the safest and best option, it apparently get help traffic flow easier too.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#137

Post by tropo »

Xylakant wrote: post #57
ben7799 wrote: post #40

As a long time long distance cyclist an awfully lot of these lanes, both protected and painted/"sharrow" are really frightening. There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. There are still major problems with their designs though, they are working from the assumption cyclists won't learn to follow the rules of the road. Tell me…

The issue is that protected bike lanes are not designed for you or me, I prefer riding in traffic, too. They are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women. For them the trade off works: spend a little more time on turns and crossings, be safe from cars overtaking close. In the end, it doesn’t even really matter if their fear is rational or not, it prevents that demographic from c…

We really do have two kinds of cyclists, and we're unjustly forcing them to follow the same rules. We chose to treat bicycles more like cars than like pedestrians, to the detriment of less-capable cyclists who care to follow the law.

We probably ought to offer and require license plates (tags) for people who wish to ride with the cars. Licensing would be as for a motorcycle, plus a requirement to demonstrate speed and acceleration. The plates could be colored by performance, indicating what roads may be used.

Unlicensed riders, plus those not displaying their license plate, would have a low speed limit and would be restricted to low-speed roads. They would also be allowed on sidewalks as long as they are going slow.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#138

Post by dheera »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #121
stevesimmons wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I nearly got a brain injury in the Netherlands! I was riding too fast, carrying a TV, in heavy rain (all perfect normal for Amsterdam!). For some reason, I took my other hand off the handlebars, the front wheel spun round and I landed face-first on the road. :( 100% my fault; no other vehicles involved. (btw, I wear a helmet 100% of the time in the UK, and in NL when on my road bike with clipless pedals)

Congrats! You are one in 90 lifetimes! From http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2010/08/brain-injuries-... > Rather than reacting emotionally we have to look at the numbers to make sense of this. The overall risk to Dutch cyclists (it's on page two of the document) of a "head/brain injury" is 153 per billion kilometres ridden. That means that one such injury is one per 6.5 million kilometres ridden. > On average, ev…

One in 90 lifetimes is a high number. Considering people bike for basically their entire life in the Netherlands that basically means that 1 in 90 people gets a brain/head injury, which in my opinion is rather high.

I do think the US is much higher in terms of serious bike accidents, but with 1 in 90 lifetime statistic I'd still be wearing a helmet. I don't care if it's 1/3100 of other causes of death -- it's a simple thing that doesn't cost much and it doesn't waste time, so might as well do it.

The 1/3100 statistic is also potentially flawed for young people. If you look at causes of death in the US, for example, the top few are disease-related, most of which are usually causes of death for people 50+ years of age. For people in their 20s and 30s car accidents account for a much higher percentage of death, if not the majority of death, than for people in their 70s, for which disease is by far #1.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#139

Post by colpabar »

btrettel wrote: post #131
pagnol wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, so it’s actually a thing. What kinds of responses do you get from drivers when you talk to them afterwards? Thanks also for mentioning the term ‘punishment pass’, googling this led me to some interesting blog posts.

You also might find the acronym MGIF (must get in front) to be interesting. I think it's mostly used by British cyclists. If my memory serves, the responses range wildly. On one end you have completely reasonable and sincere sounding apologies that they accidentally passed me dangerously. Whether or not these were accidents, I don't know. On the other end you have the typical rants against cyclists. In the middle I m…

That's awesome you talk to them. I imagine most people yell or do something dangerous because they think they'll never have to face you afterwards.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#140

Post by hannasanarion »

wefarrell wrote: post #84
hannasanarion wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Cars use them for temporary parking How? If cars can get into the bike lane, then it's not protected.

Do a google search for NYC bike lane and you'll see there are varying levels of protection, many of which do not prevent temporary parking.

Yeah, and those don't apply for a discussion about "protected bike lanes". A line on the ground is not a protected bike lane.
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