Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

cpj.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 146 posts

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#61

Post by Ericson2314 »

mc32 wrote: post #52
my_first_acct wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the "past" that the minister is referring to, Taiwan was a military dictatorship; other than a few brave souls sitting in jail, there was no political opposition, and there was no free press. There was no (legal) alternative to government propaganda. Even publications from overseas were censored (by ink and scissors) as they entered Taiwan. The article suggests that today's government, under the careful supervisio…

Let’s just say the KMT (blue) and the DPP (Green Party) have differing takes on some things.

KMT being basically pro unification means the PRC is more Chiang Kai-Shek style than DPP I guess?

Conservativism trumps historical rivalries.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#62

Post by Ericson2314 »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #41
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" propaganda (n.) information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view. " If the Taiwanese government ministries were putting out information _of a misleading or slanted nature_ in their official capacity, the press and public would rightly call them out on it.

I think it's dangerous to assume that one side are the good guys who never lie while the other are the bad guys who always do. Disinformation comes from all sides and one has to be critical of everything.

Yeah by making your own counter-message, you're being humble with respect to that possibility. Let there be two propagandas dropped at the same time and hopefully the truth will tip the scales.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#63

Post by pishpash »

komali2 wrote: post #59
pishpash wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, you'll get the same problems as all the homeless pouring into California, or poorer Central Americans pouring over the border, and the subsequent backlash. Democracies will not support the sort of development model that China has pursued of massive wealth transfer and development of the hinterlands. Developed areas will want to wall themselves off but less developed areas will want populist policies. Add on…

Why doesn't India have this problem?

Well yes, the other model is India where they tolerate certain problems and let them go on forever, but people can bitch about it. Analogous to the phenomenon of adults peeing and doing drugs on the streets of downtown SF.

Not saying it's better or worse in the end but at the least, the experiment goes on.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#64

Post by mleonhard »

nabla9 wrote: post #29

EU has also project that tries to combat disinformation EU vs Disinformation campaign https://euvsdisinfo.eu/

From their About page, they are focused on disinformation coming from the government of Russia. Do you know if they do anything like Taiwan's 60-min response goal with accountability?

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/about/

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#65

Post by jhedwards »

wil421 wrote: post #55
jhedwards wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in China though the scale issue does seem to be a problem. A brief Google shows that Taiwan has a population of a little over 23mil whereas Hunan province alone has around 67mil and Sichuan has 87mil people. Add to this that because of lack of development and the legacy of Mao many of these people either have no education or live in remote mountains or both. I'm not saying this means democracy is impossi…

Your comment is the exact one I see on HN and reddit. Yet the USA and EU have democracies with close to a billion people combined. India is an example of a developing democracy with a population close to China and all the issues that come with a huge population. Yet India is a democracy and the people have gone from a population ruled by the British to a democracy. The people of anywhere should get to decide what the…

> The people of anywhere should get to decide what they want.

I don't dispute this. I dispute people in their comfy first world homes pontificating about how China should have democracy, when they haven't been to China and experienced: 1.) the kinds of problems China faces and 2.) the difficulties facing solving those problems in China

It smacks of arrogance and youthful naivety. Yes we have a democracy in the US and how is it doing? We have garbage voting machines that are easily hackable, rampant gerrymandering, and coordinated disinformation campaigns that contributed to Trump of all people being our president.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have it than not have it, and I think we can solve these problems. I'm optimistic. But those are just the problems WE have in a developed country one third the size of China, and with better infrastructure, education, and quality of live overall. I can't imagine trying to implement an _effective_ voting system in a country like China where many people do not even have clean water or basic sanitation yet. Not to mention the fact that they don't have division of powers, so before democracy was implemented they'd require a whole bottom up restructuring of their entire governmental apparatus.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#66

Post by komali2 »

pishpash wrote: post #63
komali2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't India have this problem?

Well yes, the other model is India where they tolerate certain problems and let them go on forever, but people can bitch about it. Analogous to the phenomenon of adults peeing and doing drugs on the streets of downtown SF. Not saying it's better or worse in the end but at the least, the experiment goes on.

India is trying very hard to solve their problems, I'm curious where you get the idea that they're letting them "go on forever."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/world/asia/india-toilet-m...

Regarding peeing specifically, India has a Nationwide push for increasing toilet infrastructure. The change over the past five years, let alone ten, is dramatic. Possibly faster than anything in human history.

I also don't understand why you think nobody is doing anything about people using the restroom on the streets of SF - new bathroom trailers are being added. It's not much but it's something, and more are coming.

If you have other ideas, would you like to join me tomorrow at 2pm for the next board of supervisors meeting to present them to the city?

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#67

Post by YayamiOmate »

dominicl wrote: post #3

Great approach, and a smart minister. Living in Taipei I can only congratulate the country for this lively and young democracy. If you consider moving to Asia, Taiwan is the most forward, fair and open society.

Do you include in your evaluation uregulated political status of the state on international forum?

When I read about it, technically ROC should be the real china in the international law sense, but de facto it's PRC. (I think so, correct me please) I dont think it's officially resolved at all, even how many chinas are there...

From the middle of europe I am not afraid of Chinese (mainland ofc) army but close there, when PRC says the island is PRC, and ROC say it's ROC while they don't lost UN recognition, I consider it a serious risk. Unless one fancies fighting for freedom at some point.

Also looking from the middle of europe I am skeptical in the general international reaction, when even much stronger mandate, it achieved no practical result with Ukraine/Russia dispute.

All above saddens me deeply, because otherwise I find it hard to argue.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#68

Post by Barrin92 »

cryoshon wrote: post #13

>Each of our ministries now has a team that is charged to say if we detect that there is a disinformation campaign going on, but before it reaches the masses, they're in charge to make within 60 minutes an equally or more convincing narrative. a very interesting approach that seems to be working for taiwan. i think that European countries may be able to implement something similar with good results. of course, it rel…

>notably, for all its merits, the taiwanese system still positions the government in an information vetting capacity, which may lead some to think that it is merely another system of propaganda or quasi-censorship

This is kind of how I see it too. I think if your goal is to combat disinformation or propaganda you should just come out straight up and say it because it's a perfectly defensible position to hold, but creating a government counter-narrative isn't any more harmless than just censoring something, it's just sounds nicer than having to use the word "censor" which tends to make people in some parts of the word jump up in panic.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#70

Post by warp_factor »

dominicl wrote: post #3

Great approach, and a smart minister. Living in Taipei I can only congratulate the country for this lively and young democracy. If you consider moving to Asia, Taiwan is the most forward, fair and open society.

Spending a considerable amount of time in both Taiwan and China for work and personal reasons over the last 10 years I'm always shocked to see the huge difference between those two countries that have a common origin.

As a European I think Taiwan would be one of the easiest and best places where I could relocate in Asia. Mainland China on the other hand would be a nightmare.

Post reply on HN