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Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

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Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#51
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A common PRC propagandic trope is that the ten thousand years of Chinese history doesn't lend the culture to democracy. That the culture is simply incompatible with the concept - the people need autocracy. Taiwan is a shining and obvious example otherwise. Totally agreed. The sentiment appears on HN regularly and it's extremely annoying when there's such an obvious counterexample.

Interestingly, the sentiment doesn't appear only when China is discussed. There are a number of comments that boil down to "democracy has failed" or "democracy will fail in the next few years" (usually when automation is discussed). My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of neoreactionary theory that is slowly seeping into public discourse.

There are a number of comments that boil down to "democracy has failed" or "democracy will fail in the next few years" (usually when automation is discussed).

My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of neoreactionary theory that is slowly seeping into public discourse.

My hunch is that it's a cornerstone of the newest progressive agenda to give more power to the federal government and to California and New York. What's been slowly seeping into the public discourse is, "Freedom? Meh."

Don't like someone's speech. "F Free Speech!" The trend is to give either the government or big corporations more control over people's interactions at work, how employers pay employees, what information we receive, and how much privacy we have in commerce and the information we consume.

The people must always fight the power and speak truth to power. What we have forgotten in recent years, is that the insurgents need to amass power to do so, and by amassing power, they often become the established power. I remember a quip about Postmodernism by a PhD student -- how it started out as something disruptive and edgy, then ended up as the stuff you had to spout to get your degree. The edgy, subversive media and academic movements of the 60's are now the media and academic establishment of 2019.

When in doubt, always go to first principles and universal principles. Be skeptical of feelings -- governments and corporations have long been using emotions to manipulate people. Governments for thousands of years, and corporations started in earnest well over a century ago.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#52
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the minister herself indicates the government did just that in the past Beside, if the press and public could and would call out government propaganda (which according to the minister is pretty much indistinguishable from disinformation) why would they need the government to pre-empt and counter it if it's easy to spot?

In the "past" that the minister is referring to, Taiwan was a military dictatorship; other than a few brave souls sitting in jail, there was no political opposition, and there was no free press. There was no (legal) alternative to government propaganda. Even publications from overseas were censored (by ink and scissors) as they entered Taiwan. The article suggests that today's government, under the careful supervisio…

Let’s just say the KMT (blue) and the DPP (Green Party) have differing takes on some things.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A common PRC propagandic trope is that the ten thousand years of Chinese history doesn't lend the culture to democracy. That the culture is simply incompatible with the concept - the people need autocracy. Taiwan is a shining and obvious example otherwise. Totally agreed. The sentiment appears on HN regularly and it's extremely annoying when there's such an obvious counterexample.

Having lived in China though the scale issue does seem to be a problem. A brief Google shows that Taiwan has a population of a little over 23mil whereas Hunan province alone has around 67mil and Sichuan has 87mil people. Add to this that because of lack of development and the legacy of Mao many of these people either have no education or live in remote mountains or both. I'm not saying this means democracy is impossi…

The closest comparison is India, not Taiwan. 23 mil is about the size of one major city in China. Shanghai alone has more people than all of Taiwan.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#54
The things adolescents snide at, start there.

Sure you can drink your beer. Who do you think painted the Coor's light can red and silver?

Mom? Dad?

Or the People's Republic of China with help of General Sulamani of Hezbollah?

Sorry kids, I'm not going to burn alive a billion people just because you can't control what you shove down your fat throat or what's in between your legs.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A common PRC propagandic trope is that the ten thousand years of Chinese history doesn't lend the culture to democracy. That the culture is simply incompatible with the concept - the people need autocracy. Taiwan is a shining and obvious example otherwise. Totally agreed. The sentiment appears on HN regularly and it's extremely annoying when there's such an obvious counterexample.

Having lived in China though the scale issue does seem to be a problem. A brief Google shows that Taiwan has a population of a little over 23mil whereas Hunan province alone has around 67mil and Sichuan has 87mil people. Add to this that because of lack of development and the legacy of Mao many of these people either have no education or live in remote mountains or both. I'm not saying this means democracy is impossi…

Your comment is the exact one I see on HN and reddit.

Yet the USA and EU have democracies with close to a billion people combined. India is an example of a developing democracy with a population close to China and all the issues that come with a huge population. Yet India is a democracy and the people have gone from a population ruled by the British to a democracy.

The people of anywhere should get to decide what they want.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in China though the scale issue does seem to be a problem. A brief Google shows that Taiwan has a population of a little over 23mil whereas Hunan province alone has around 67mil and Sichuan has 87mil people. Add to this that because of lack of development and the legacy of Mao many of these people either have no education or live in remote mountains or both. I'm not saying this means democracy is impossi…

What would prevent a federal system from working in China?

For one, you'll get the same problems as all the homeless pouring into California, or poorer Central Americans pouring over the border, and the subsequent backlash. Democracies will not support the sort of development model that China has pursued of massive wealth transfer and development of the hinterlands. Developed areas will want to wall themselves off but less developed areas will want populist policies. Add on top of that ethnic issues that would be easily exploitable by demagogues. More likely than not the country falls apart.

Don't be so smug, the US and EU are only getting a small taste of the sort of problems that China has been facing for several thousand years as a diverse centralized state, and are already resorting to the sort of things that China ended up having to do with respect to social control and stability.

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#57
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't seem to really be contradicting my point. You're just assuming that the 'good guys' don't lie while the others are the 'bad guys' who obviously do lie. There are indeed fighting propaganda with counter-propaganda, which is an age old strategy. They do seem to have adapted it for our era of instant communication and social media. Now, working out the facts in any given situation is not always easy. Everyone…

One difference is that they can be held accountable for their actions, something that doesn't apply to freedomeagle69.facebook any more than it applies to people working at the PRC ministry of "cultural well-being." Doesn't that make a difference?

I sure believe so :)

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#58
post #15

> First, before a propaganda campaign or disinformation spreads, we usually observe that there is a point where they are doing some kind of limited testing or A/B testing, and that's before it became really popular. It's just testing the meme, the variation, to see whether it would go viral, so to speak. I have definitely seen this happen in real time. Suggest it publicly and you'll be accused of being Alex Jones, bu…

I can tell you all about how the propaganda campaign to justify the Iraq invasion was pulled off. They had agents on message boards and all over the Internet even back then. They even drafted the comedian, Dennis Miller, to go on late night tv shows multiple times and push the propaganda there. I was astounded that very few people were talking about what a sell job it all was. Just to refresh everyone's memory: Sadda…

IIRC didn't they get bad intel from Iraqies who wanted an invasion (because they didn't like Sadam)? I think they might have known the intel was suspect, but didn't ask too many questions.

I grew up among conservative US expats who didn't have message boards and mostly didn't watch television. I think you underestimate the desire of some Americans to relive their glory days and "liberate" other countries.

Edit: I think most of them didn't really even care about WMDs, they just knew Sadam was an evil person (and to be fair, he was).

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would prevent a federal system from working in China?

For one, you'll get the same problems as all the homeless pouring into California, or poorer Central Americans pouring over the border, and the subsequent backlash. Democracies will not support the sort of development model that China has pursued of massive wealth transfer and development of the hinterlands. Developed areas will want to wall themselves off but less developed areas will want populist policies. Add on…

Why doesn't India have this problem?

Re: Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship

#60
post #2

Wiki page of Audrey Tang: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Tang She also has many very inspiring talks on slideshare about open source software.

Audrey Tang was also an author in The Architecture of Open Source Applications (AOSA):

https://aosabook.org/en/500L/web-spreadsheet.html

Chinese (Traditional): https://github.com/aosabook/500lines/blob/master/spreadsheet...

https://aosabook.org/en/socialcalc.html

You can check the series out in its entirety at https://aosabook.org

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