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Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

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81–90 of 94 posts

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#81
post #55

From a long line of farmers...this is just one of the first steps of industrialization. It took two generations to eradicate family farming in America (at least where I am from), and it will happen faster for Africa. It's great that people have better and more effective local food production, but when the real economics kick in, and these people are competing with corporate farming, their way of life will change, sad…

I live in Kenya and this has already happened. The 'make farming cool' movement is very emotionally driven and ill advised. Small scale farming is just not sustainable any more.

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#82
post #78
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A local agriculture will drive down the cost of food Is this true? In my experience the cheapest food is rarely almost never locally produced. It may be marketing and the demand for local food is higher. Long supply chains have a lot of value add. Sure there is cost to transporting and storing the food, but the process has other efficiencies that more than make up for the cost. I've even read stories about Central…

It really depends. In high cost of labor countries, the long supply chain likely is cheaper due to many small compounding reasons. In low cost of labor countries, I've seen the exact opposite. It's probably not very profitable in the US to setup a vegetable stand for 12 hours a day along a highway for $10/hr of sales. In many countries it is - you have a market garden and put one of the grandparents/children/cousins/…

In Kazakhstan local food is not cheap as well. Yes, human labor is cheap. But that means that it's cheap for supply chain as well. I live in Astana and a lot of fruits are imported from Uzbekistan, even those that could be grown locally like apples. There are people who grow apples, potatoes and other vegetables in their gardens, mainly for themselves but they also sell what they don't need. And that price is not low. On the other side, imported vegetables usually don't have good taste, probably because they are optimized for export, so that high price vegetables have their buyers.

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#83
post #73
post #29

This is a great development for a number of reasons: 1. You've got high unemployment and a homegrown agriculture will put people to work. 2. Citizens diet is less dependent on a long supply chain 3. A local agriculture will drive down the cost of food. This will make a measurable difference in everyone's life. In America we pay 6.4% of our income for food, in Africa it's 60%. If the cost of food goes down people will…

> A local agriculture will drive down the cost of food Is this true? In my experience the cheapest food is rarely almost never locally produced. It may be marketing and the demand for local food is higher. Long supply chains have a lot of value add. Sure there is cost to transporting and storing the food, but the process has other efficiencies that more than make up for the cost. I've even read stories about Central…

In a country with a less developed transportation network local food will be cheaper than transported food. Keep in mind that lowering food prices for a developed country is a much different optimization game than lowering food costs for an undeveloped country. Not every country has a freight rail network as effective as the US.

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it this way: if the percentage income spent on food dropped from 60% to, say 20%, that would effectively double their remaining income! I don't see how that could not affect a local economy, regardless of the absolute scale.

You can do that in two ways: Reduce cost of food by two thirds or double their income. Both of these feats would be incredible . So yeah, if we could do incredible things, that would be amazing. Let's get back to reality though: Food prices are more or less set by international markets. African farmers can't compete with other countries, because they work so inefficiently. Making more people work as farmers doesn't c…

How do you propose to double their income?

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#85
post #78
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A local agriculture will drive down the cost of food Is this true? In my experience the cheapest food is rarely almost never locally produced. It may be marketing and the demand for local food is higher. Long supply chains have a lot of value add. Sure there is cost to transporting and storing the food, but the process has other efficiencies that more than make up for the cost. I've even read stories about Central…

It really depends. In high cost of labor countries, the long supply chain likely is cheaper due to many small compounding reasons. In low cost of labor countries, I've seen the exact opposite. It's probably not very profitable in the US to setup a vegetable stand for 12 hours a day along a highway for $10/hr of sales. In many countries it is - you have a market garden and put one of the grandparents/children/cousins/…

It gets even more crazy, though. Very frequently there are weird market conditions that create massive losses for large suppliers. Random google link: https://www.freshplaza.com/article/9056981/india-tomato-whol... You can see that the price dropped as much as 74% These things happen around the world surprisingly frequently.

Large supermarkets, etc, can get access to these ridiculous prices and so it can cause prices to stay fairly low. However, it is not really healthy for the farmers. If you live in a really rural area that doesn't have access to a large world-wide market, the local food will be a lot cheaper because the only outside food you have access to is super expensive.

For me, buying local is about agricultural sustainability. It's about making sure that my neighbours can grow food, sell it and live comfortably. I'd also rather have many small farmers producing the best quality produce they can, than 1 super farmer that is trying to produce the cheapest produce they can. This all adds up to higher prices, of course.

I often feel that we should have "fair trade" in food everywhere. I can buy a pound of raisons from California for less than $2. The same grapes would be 4 pounds. $2000 of raisons at a retail price is 4000 pounds of grapes... And you think for those tonnes of grapes... how much is the farmer getting? It gets a bit crazy.

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#86
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is a simple question and reference to an event a flame war?

Because of the associations to pre-existing intense controversy. Those act like magnets pulling discussion in their direction, away from the topic at hand. On HN, we're trying to open up a space to discuss new things, unexpected things, curious things. Those exert a weaker force on attention than the sensationalized hot topics that already exist in people's minds. When comments hop from a new topic to an intense pre-…

Yes, thanks for clarifying.

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do economies really need to go through that "farming phase" to grow? I don't see the connection. Modern farming employs less than 1% of the population. Non-modern farming can not compete at all except in tiny niches. So how are those "native farmers" going to bring their societies from poverty to prosperity, by being completely uncompetitive, but protected at the same time?

As someone who has family that still farms: the amount of equipment required to allow only 1% of the population to grow food is enormous. Are you seriously suggesting that it will be a trivial thing for farms that currently rely on manual labor to switch to large-scale mechanized practices? Most farmers I know have >1M USD in equipment, along with the required infrastructure to handle shipping/storing the crop. So I…

> Are you seriously suggesting that it will be a trivial thing for farms that currently rely on manual labor to switch to large-scale mechanized practices?

Of course not. I'm suggesting the opposite: That they have no chance of competing with manual farm labor, so there's no point in trying.

> So I don't see how they can avoid a process similar to what occurred for western farmers starting ~1900.

I don't see how a development process that may have happened in the West over a hundred years ago, under completely different circumstances, can be repeated in Africa in 2019. That's literally the question I am posing: How could this kind of development possibly work through farming?

> They don't need to be competitive on a global scale, they need to find a profitable niche in their own countries.

You can't ignore the global market. The whole reason why many farmers can't make a living in Africa is because foreign produce is cheaper, due to automation. So you would have to restrict foreign produce, raising its prices and therefore making everyone poorer (except the farmers).

> Additionally, increasing employment seems far preferable; likely developing local economies is the best way to increase standards of living rather than relying on foreign aid.

Developing local economies is fine, doing it through farming is completely misguided. In farming, a massive amount of labor can be automated away and will be automated away if economic development actually takes place, so any employment here would be temporary at best.

Instead of farming, let's take the manufacturing of clothes. Some of it can be automated away, but not necessarily to the point to make 99% of workers redundant. As a result, you can see many emerging economies producing clothes for international markets.

> Also note that there are many crops even in the US that heavily rely on hand labor (typically fruit/vegetables). While it may not be feasible to compete with imported grains, I can certainly see how local farmers could effectively compete for these crops- which would likely also increase the diversity of foods avaliable in local markets.

I did note as much, specialized farming may well be a profitable niche for exporting. Except those misguided western do-gooders aren't helping them build supply chains to western markets for valuable produce, they're telling them that raising rats and snails for the domestic market is totally the right thing to do for economic development. Utter nonsense!

> How is it anything but a net positive for them to develop local industries; the increased economic output is likely to improve the entire local economies and doesn't rely on foreign aid (which can suppress long-term economic development).

Because of comparative advantage. Making domestic farming sustainable would require protectionism. We figured out hundreds of years ago that protectionism doesn't work and effectively makes everyone poorer, yet somehow it's still popular among politicians (like Mr. Trump).

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#88
post #80
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Africa is a fairly large continent and its countries are varied in their cultures, languages, government institutions and politics. Ghana is among the safer, more developed and faster growing African nations, and is far, far safer than SA.

This is both off topic and a flamewar topic, which the site guidelines ask people not to introduce. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please do not use such generalizations on HN.

Since you're clearly not interested in using HN as intended, we've banned this account. If you change your mind, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#89
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about silencing wrongthing so much as allowing other topics not to get drowned out by the ragey usual. Snail farming in Ghana is surely not as important as murder in South Africa, but what attracts curiosity more? That's the core question here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In the unlikely event that Congress or the Whitehouse take an interest in HN moderation, I'll be happy to share with…

> In the unlikely event that Congress or the Whitehouse take an interest in HN moderation, I'll be happy to share with them how we approach this. “I’m doing the same things that triggered Congressional and Presidential investigations, and plan to continue until they harass me directly.” You’re such an upstanding member of society. I sincerely hope they do investigate you, because I believe your authoritarian censorsh…

You're overestimating HN's influence by quite a bit.

Re: Millennials ‘Make Farming Sexy’ in Africa, Where Tilling Soil Once Meant Shame

#90
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends. In high cost of labor countries, the long supply chain likely is cheaper due to many small compounding reasons. In low cost of labor countries, I've seen the exact opposite. It's probably not very profitable in the US to setup a vegetable stand for 12 hours a day along a highway for $10/hr of sales. In many countries it is - you have a market garden and put one of the grandparents/children/cousins/…

It gets even more crazy, though. Very frequently there are weird market conditions that create massive losses for large suppliers. Random google link: https://www.freshplaza.com/article/9056981/india-tomato-whol... You can see that the price dropped as much as 74% These things happen around the world surprisingly frequently. Large supermarkets, etc, can get access to these ridiculous prices and so it can cause prices…

Maybe it's cheaper to transport raisins than grapes? They are smaller so you could fit more of them on a truck. Also they are already dried out, so they may be less sensitive to shipping conditions.
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