How Stoicism can help us • Hacker News Board

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#81

Post by jasonhansel » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:06 AM UTC

lordleft wrote: post #39

One of my favorite passages from the Meditations is Marcus' observation that Stoicism has value regardless of one's theology and metaphysics: Either there is a fatal necessity and invincible order, or a kind Providence, or a confusion without a purpose and without a director. If then there is an invincible necessity, why do you resist? But if there is a Providence that allows itself to be propitiated, make yourself w…

It's important to remember that Marcus Aurelius is the only Stoic who thinks this. For all other Stoics, ethics is grounded in metaphysics and theology, not independent of them.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#82

Post by AmericanChopper » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:13 AM UTC

0815test wrote: post #76

iiv wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer the question: what is so horrible about trying to help oneself by tempering one's emotions and seeking happiness within?

It's not horrible, but it's not Stoicism either. The notion of eudaimonia (which is what you talk about) is found throughout the schools of thought of the Western classical world, and similar notions pop up all over the place in ancient philosophy, even in such places as India or China. Calling that "Stoicism" just leads to pointless misconceptions.

> The notion of eudaimonia (which is what you talk about)

That's not what's being talked about. Eudaimonia refers to the benefits of living virtuously, a core part of Stoicism, but not the part that's directly being discussed in this article. The ideas discussed in this article are about self-control, disconnecting your emotional well-being from things that are beyond your control, and seeking happiness from within. Those are quintessential Stoic principles. A lot of the modern pop-stoicism also delves into the benefits of virtue, maintaining the connection to eudaimonia and Socrates' question, albeit in a slightly round about way. The only Stoic principle that's usually left out of these discussions is pantheism.

> similar notions pop up all over the place in ancient philosophy

You're right, they do. That doesn't make them any less Stoic though. Perhaps if this was a Chinese message board, we'd all be talking about Buddhism instead. The two philosophies do have a lot in common.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#83

Post by AmericanChopper » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 12:04 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #58

AmericanChopper wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If historical context is important, then you might want to mention that Rome was a hereditary empire. The 5 good emperors were all adopted by emperors who had no sons. In the historical context of Rome, Marcus didn’t hand Commodus anything, or empower him to become emperor. He rightfully inherited the position.

At the time of Aurelius, I'm not so sure that's an accurate description. The only non-adopted sons given power from Julius through Marcus were those of Vespasian (though a lot of adoptions were of extended family members). Of course, to not hand power to Commodus would have meant his death. I'm not judging him for his decision, but given his absolute power and obvious clarity of thought, it was a conscious decision t…

> it was a conscious decision to choose his son's life over the good of the empire.

The generally contrived nature of this argument aside, this is really just revisionism. Commodus was 18 when Aurelius died, and he didn't become a lunatic until a fair bit after his fathers death. If you're looking for flaws in Marcus Aurelius (there's plenty), this isn't one of them.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#84

Post by sametmax » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 12:34 PM UTC

The problem with stoicism, is that it's providing you with a lot of concepts, and zero way to apply them.

It's like saying "to win the race, run faster". Doh.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#85

Post by zuzuleinen » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 12:40 PM UTC

unixhero wrote: post #62

I myself prefer transcendentalism. I need to be surrounded by more positive emotions. I read this text, "Self-Reliance" by Ralph Waldo Emerson - modern translation, at least at once a year: http://www.youmeworks.com/self_reliance_translated.html Great discussion in this topic btw.

Thank you for this. It is really one of the most freeing text I've read in a while :)

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#86

Post by mcv » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 1:04 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #84

The problem with stoicism, is that it's providing you with a lot of concepts, and zero way to apply them. It's like saying "to win the race, run faster". Doh.

It's a useful guideline to keep in mind for people who may be overcome or distracted by circumstances and forget to run faster.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#87

Post by thrower123 » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #63

j7ake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is saying physical pain is the only pain worth considering. What people are saying is that if you asked 100 coal miners and 100 tech workers to swap jobs for one year, then asked them one year later whether they would like to switch back, there will be an overwhelming asymmetry towards staying a tech worker. The problems a tech worker faces is minuscule relative to a coal miner. And the above thought experimen…

That is not odds with philosophy adoption at all. In fact, nature of these (imagined) miners problems can make it harder to adopt philosophy that would make it harder to seek solutions to very real problems they have. If you endure pain with no display, your pain is taken less seriously after all and at some point, you need that doctor to understand it is real. And at other point you already need to stop working or f…

Generally, if you are male, no one is going to look on you with much sympathy if you express that you are in pain. Pity and contempt are the more likely outcomes. Stoicism is a tool that helps it to be a little easier to suck it up and drive on and do your job.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#88

Post by lm28469 » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #84

The problem with stoicism, is that it's providing you with a lot of concepts, and zero way to apply them. It's like saying "to win the race, run faster". Doh.

Have you read Seneca's letters? I can't think of anything more straightforward and applicable.

Live simply, don't value external things, have principles and stand behind them, think in term of "long term happiness" not "short term joys", be nice to your fellow humans, being rich in material things is nice but not sufficient while having virtues, knowledge and a strong community is necessary. It really isn't rocket science, especially compared to other/newer philosophical movements.

It's life, no one is going to hold your hand and lead you to your happy place. Educate yourself, read the masters, follow the ones that seems aligned to your beliefs and move on if you find something better.

I really like these:

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/L...

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#89

Post by trevyn » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

unixhero wrote: post #62

I myself prefer transcendentalism. I need to be surrounded by more positive emotions. I read this text, "Self-Reliance" by Ralph Waldo Emerson - modern translation, at least at once a year: http://www.youmeworks.com/self_reliance_translated.html Great discussion in this topic btw.

Another thanks for this. Powerful stuff.

I looked up transcendentalism, and found this definition: “an idealistic philosophical and social movement which developed in New England around 1836 in reaction to rationalism.”

I found this origin curious because Emerson’s ideas don’t seem to conflict with rationalism; in fact, a transcendental mindset seems like an entirely rational belief system to adopt if one wants to live well, and there are interpretations that are entirely in line with scientific observation.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#90

Post by sametmax » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 2:05 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #88

sametmax wrote: post #84

The problem with stoicism, is that it's providing you with a lot of concepts, and zero way to apply them. It's like saying "to win the race, run faster". Doh.

Have you read Seneca's letters? I can't think of anything more straightforward and applicable. Live simply, don't value external things, have principles and stand behind them, think in term of "long term happiness" not "short term joys", be nice to your fellow humans, being rich in material things is nice but not sufficient while having virtues, knowledge and a strong community is necessary. It really isn't rocket sc…

Of course I did. I even tried to follow some things to the extreme. E.G: one letter advice to have "poverty days" so that you never get afraid of being poor. So I went to sleep in the street from time to time.

But most of the content is not that straight forward. Take for example:

"Therefore, Lucilius, do as you write me that you are doing: hold every hour in your grasp. Lay hold of to-day's task, and you will not need to depend so much upon to-morrow'"

Yeah. How do you do that ?

It's nice to say "carpe diem" or "focus on what's important". "Do the hard things first" and all that.

You can also tell a fat guy to eat less calories. Great. Now what ?

That's why I prefer philosophy when it comes with a method.

Meditation. Wim Hof method. Intermittent fasting. Psilocybin retreat. Whatever. But something to actually help you apply a thereory that otherwise get completely uncorrelated from one's life.