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How Stoicism can help us

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Re: How Stoicism can help us

#51

Post by ssivark »

codingslave wrote: post #41

For anyone who wants an alternate view (by Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism #9): "Do you want to live "according to nature"? O you noble Stoics, what a verbal swindle! Imagine a being like nature - extravagant without limit, indifferent without limit, without purposes and consideration, without pity and justice, simultaneously fruitful, desolate, and unknown - imagine this indifference itself as a power - ho…

At a quick glance, that passage seems to be almost deliberately obfuscating the difference between living while accounting for nature (the uncontrollable aspects) i.e. in accordance with, versus, living like nature.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#52

Post by SomeOldThrow »

dorcos wrote: post #49
afpx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am no expert; I only read a lot. But, my understanding is that early Christianity was a reaction away from Judaism. And, that the Old Testament was only added as part of the canon later. In contrast to Judaism, Christianity was must more similar to Buddhism with it’s hippy love message. But, yes, I’m sure that’s very controversial.

Early Christianity is the fulfillment of 1st Century Judaism with Jesus Christ being revealed as the Messiah and King. Modern day Judaism, that is Rabbinic Judaism (which followed some time after the destruction of the 2nd Temple) denies Jesus as that expected Messiah and has an expectation of someone else that is to come. For Christians, The Old Testament and New Testament are very much coupled together. There's a l…

It’s also worth explicitly noting that Christianity-as-a-Jewish movement and Christianity-as-non-Judaism took a couple centuries to shake out. I would also guess that, and there is decent evidence for, christianity at the time would have looked much more similar to a communist movement (natural communism, think potlucks, not marxism) than the religion we know today—it appears you can thank Paul, in part, for that.

Also, if you’re looking to desugar Christianity with empathy, I recommend Kierkegaard’s excellent Fear and Trembling. Lewis’s trilemma falls uncomfortably close to Christianity-through-proof genre of literature—I realize that’s not his intent, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I’ve always found his The Weight of Glory to be more compelling.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#53

Post by darkpuma »

pewpewpew777 wrote: post #23
darkpuma wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the existence of good people with bad parents. Should those bad parents be credited with the success of their children? It seems perverse to assume parents deserve full 'credit' in either scenario. There are many things other than parents that may influence that child's direction for better or worse.

Even partial credit seems enough to question the wisdom of Marcus Aurelius's philosophy. He raised Commodus, and co-ruled with him for a time. - He was was either unaware of his son's (lack) of fitness or - He was aware but unwilling to take corrective action or - He was aware but unable to take corrective action

Considering the extreme excesses of Commodus came after his father was no longer in the picture, Marcus Auerelius being unaware of what his son would do in the future seems rather likely.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#54

Post by AmericanChopper »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #30
darkpuma wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the existence of good people with bad parents. Should those bad parents be credited with the success of their children? It seems perverse to assume parents deserve full 'credit' in either scenario. There are many things other than parents that may influence that child's direction for better or worse.

Raising a bad child is one thing, but handing them the keys to the kingdom is another. It's not enough to dismiss the philosophy, but parent comment is absolutely correct that you should keep it in mind as historical context.

If historical context is important, then you might want to mention that Rome was a hereditary empire. The 5 good emperors were all adopted by emperors who had no sons. In the historical context of Rome, Marcus didn’t hand Commodus anything, or empower him to become emperor. He rightfully inherited the position.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#55

Post by 0815test »

ssivark wrote: post #51
codingslave wrote: post #41

For anyone who wants an alternate view (by Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism #9): "Do you want to live "according to nature"? O you noble Stoics, what a verbal swindle! Imagine a being like nature - extravagant without limit, indifferent without limit, without purposes and consideration, without pity and justice, simultaneously fruitful, desolate, and unknown - imagine this indifference itself as a power - ho…

At a quick glance, that passage seems to be almost deliberately obfuscating the difference between living while accounting for nature (the uncontrollable aspects) i.e. in accordance with , versus, living like nature.

No surprise there - the "living like nature" part was the whole schtick of Nietzsche's philosophy. More like an Epicurean with a healthy dose of Cynicism than a Stoic, if we have to make that kind of basic comparison. He would probably conflate Stoicism with the (nowadays prevalent and in many ways successful) "English" approach to values, which he considered a reversal of the "true" values that's driven by resentment, and a philosophical dead-end.

Though Nietzsche did also develop a highly refined statement of "living in accordance with unchangeable nature" through his idea of Amor fati. The fact that he acknowledged this principle so thoroughly despite opposing many other parts of Stoicism must surely be of some significance.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#56

Post by AmericanChopper »

gnosticrose wrote: post #42
jasonhansel wrote: post #26

> In your book, you also write about the importance of following your own values — and that Stoicism is a personal choice. > therapists today are increasingly encouraging clients to identify their true inner values and do things that serve those more fully. The big problem here is that most people don’t know what those values are. It's important to remember that the Stoics did not encourage us to follow our own indiv…

Couldn't agree with you more. This "life hack" diluted and "self help" version of Stoicism is horrendous.

What do horrendous about it? Adopting the stoic approach to tempering your impulses, accepting that which is beyond your control, and seeking happiness from within doesn’t sound horrendous to me at all. There’s plenty of wisdom in Stoicism for people to benefit from.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#57

Post by j7ake »

freehunter wrote: post #35
wavefunction wrote: post #9

I enjoy studying and considering stoicism but I have to think statements like >one of the biggest groups of people interested in it seems to be millennials who work in the tech industry and considering a simplified description of stoicism >the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint. To be an indictment of our industry. We're not coal-miners. We're not picking out in the fi…

The belief the physical pain is the only kind of pain worth caring about is very misguided and causes a lot of harm in the world. It's think kind of belief that causes mental health issues to become stigmatized so people avoid seeking treatment or discussing it. This leads to breakdowns or suicide. Just because muscles are not aching and bones are not broken and skin is intact does not mean a person is not suffering…

Nobody is saying physical pain is the only pain worth considering. What people are saying is that if you asked 100 coal miners and 100 tech workers to swap jobs for one year, then asked them one year later whether they would like to switch back, there will be an overwhelming asymmetry towards staying a tech worker.

The problems a tech worker faces is minuscule relative to a coal miner. And the above thought experiment highlights that.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#58

Post by reitzensteinm »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #54
reitzensteinm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising a bad child is one thing, but handing them the keys to the kingdom is another. It's not enough to dismiss the philosophy, but parent comment is absolutely correct that you should keep it in mind as historical context.

If historical context is important, then you might want to mention that Rome was a hereditary empire. The 5 good emperors were all adopted by emperors who had no sons. In the historical context of Rome, Marcus didn’t hand Commodus anything, or empower him to become emperor. He rightfully inherited the position.

At the time of Aurelius, I'm not so sure that's an accurate description. The only non-adopted sons given power from Julius through Marcus were those of Vespasian (though a lot of adoptions were of extended family members).

Of course, to not hand power to Commodus would have meant his death. I'm not judging him for his decision, but given his absolute power and obvious clarity of thought, it was a conscious decision to choose his son's life over the good of the empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_emperors

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#59

Post by gnosticrose »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #56
gnosticrose wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree with you more. This "life hack" diluted and "self help" version of Stoicism is horrendous.

What do horrendous about it? Adopting the stoic approach to tempering your impulses, accepting that which is beyond your control, and seeking happiness from within doesn’t sound horrendous to me at all. There’s plenty of wisdom in Stoicism for people to benefit from.

I love to read the historical stoics. But there is the good old traditional Stoicism and this new "self-help" stoicism trend that isn't the same at all.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#60

Post by [deleted] »

lordleft wrote: post #39

One of my favorite passages from the Meditations is Marcus' observation that Stoicism has value regardless of one's theology and metaphysics: Either there is a fatal necessity and invincible order, or a kind Providence, or a confusion without a purpose and without a director. If then there is an invincible necessity, why do you resist? But if there is a Providence that allows itself to be propitiated, make yourself w…

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