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If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

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Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#51

Post by hartror »

thret wrote: post #48
netcan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many places people still haggle for most things. Even where I live (Melbourne, Australia) a very non bargaining place, some restaurant districts have bargaining cultures. If you play your cards right, you can get wine and dessert thrown in if you order the steak, site by the window before the dinner rush (makes the restaurant look full). My point is that bargaining norms aren't necessarily evolved from necessity,…

I'm living in Melbourne and I am unaware of this. Wine and dessert? Surely you must be joking.

Take a walk down Lygon st or Hardware Lane of an evening. All the maitre d's will vi for your business with the best deal. You play it cool and you can get 30%+ off the menu costs especially in a large group (Lygon St for groups, Hardware Lane can be touch and go on tables as it is smaller).

I am a bit more shifty as I normally have the target place chosen before I even leave home and will try to make sure the maitre d' seeing me chatting to next door so I can play him off against them.

It is all good natured and they expect it.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#52

Post by noonespecial »

angrycoder wrote: post #41
trotsky wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does go both ways, though. I'm a software developer/consultant and am sympathetic to the video but lets look at from the other side. Most pro level consulting teams work open ended time and materials contracts. There's very good reasons for this, but this definitely gets abused to deliver a project that was never expected to come in on budget. It also exposes the client to the effects of bad management or other in…

>Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double. In my experience... The client orders a hamburger. You give them a hamburger. The client really wanted a hotdog and expects you to eat the cost of the hamburger. Not a big deal in the real world, except in this example hamburgers cost tens of thousands of dollars.

That or they force you to agree to a spec that absolutely will produce a burned hamburger, then refuse to accept it because its burned. Both you and the burger end up burned.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#53

Post by jrockway »

sliverstorm wrote: post #23
noonespecial wrote: post #4

There are two angles at play that got a little mixed together in the video. The first is the hard bargain during initial negotiations (ala the CD for much less) the second (and much uglier) is the restaurant, where after the work is done the client flat refuses to pay. I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad.

I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad. Seriously. Even though I know it's all mocked up, every time the video cut to the restaurant my pulse started to rise.

It's pretty stupid to let someone eat your product before you even check to see if they brought their wallet, isn't it.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#54

Post by cubicle67 »

axiom wrote: post #14

This is the difference between business-to-business versus buying consumer goods. You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective. So you have a fixed price for everyone. However you can (and should) negotiate with people buying $20k worth of services from you. Historically, the consumer experience is actually the exception, not b2b. Up until fai…

I bargain for almost everything (much to my wife's embarrassment :). One thing I've found, is that if you can't get them to reduce the price, you can often get extras thrown in. I recently bought a fairly expensive coffee machine (a real one, not one of those electronic ones); supplier wouldn't budge on price, but I did manage to get $400 credited to my account, 2x barrista training vouchers worth $150 each, and a few other little bits. Extra value to me, over $700. Cost to supplier, assuming reasonable markup, probably less than $300. Win win.

Edit: few things:

* Most important of all - don't be a dick. Be friendly, honest and don't waste people's time

* If you can, hold of your purchase until you get the deal you're looking for. When I got my macbook, I when to a number of places and in the end got free applecare and a free case.

* If you're buying white/brown goods (except computers), a simple "What price can you do on that?" will almost always see a 10% discount, sometimes way more.

* Some stock is in constant demand, and you'll almost never get a discount. Black mens trousers, for example.

* If something on offer, the person selling it want's to get rid of it, and will most likely negotiate. Best example is food at the end of the day. Walking past a stand discounting the remaining donuts for $6/box, but you've only got $4? Make an offer anyway.

er... think I'l stop before this looks like a post on Lifehacker or something :)

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#55

Post by vacri »

hartror wrote: post #51
thret wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm living in Melbourne and I am unaware of this. Wine and dessert? Surely you must be joking.

Take a walk down Lygon st or Hardware Lane of an evening. All the maitre d's will vi for your business with the best deal. You play it cool and you can get 30%+ off the menu costs especially in a large group (Lygon St for groups, Hardware Lane can be touch and go on tables as it is smaller). I am a bit more shifty as I normally have the target place chosen before I even leave home and will try to make sure the maitre…

Now I have an image of Lygon St spruikers madly typing in vi...

A near lifelong citizen of Fitzroy and Brunswick, I've noticed that locals have shifted heavily away from Lygon St - for me, I refuse to eat there simply because even after you've had a satisfying dinner, you can't walk down the street without being accosted by every spruiker you come across. Having to walk a couple of hundred meters continually chanting "no thanks, we just ate, we just ate" takes the shine from a good dinner. I'd rather pay for dessert and wine than run the spruiker gauntlet...

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#56

Post by vacri »

bmcleod wrote: post #16
axiom wrote: post #14

This is the difference between business-to-business versus buying consumer goods. You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective. So you have a fixed price for everyone. However you can (and should) negotiate with people buying $20k worth of services from you. Historically, the consumer experience is actually the exception, not b2b. Up until fai…

Slightly related: In pretty much any store which has sales people that come and talk to you those people have the ability to knock 5-10% off if you ask for it. Cheap things aren't worth negotiating a lot for, but they certainly can be negotiated and the other side will quite happily make a small concession normally since it pays off in happy customers. This is why always asking for a discount is worth it.

The medical equipment company I used to work for had a 5% discount that they built into every sale - people rarely paid full price, so sometimes just asking 'can you do better?' on high cost items will at least get you this "auto" discount.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#57

Post by cubicle67 »

jrockway wrote: post #53
sliverstorm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad. Seriously. Even though I know it's all mocked up, every time the video cut to the restaurant my pulse started to rise.

It's pretty stupid to let someone eat your product before you even check to see if they brought their wallet, isn't it.

It's not getting people to bring their wallets that's the problem, it's getting them to open them

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#58

Post by vacri »

kls wrote: post #42
tocomment wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty smart.

Well I don't know about smart, but it is practical. The problem with our profession and the reason the video while comical is not accurate. We get compared to other professionals a lot, like doctors or lawyers but the problem is unlike doctors or lawyers, each new job we do, is like performing a completely new procedure. I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most. The econom…

"I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most."

Speaking as someone who went to get a new filling in June, went through getting a root canal on another tooth, and finally will end up going under a GA to get some more serious work done in a month or two, I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do not charge on a fixed-symptom basis.

Even if you need to return to a doctor only to get a new copy of a script you have already had, most doctors will charge you the consult time.

Given that you appear to suggest there is no art to medicine, it sounds like you have no exposure to the medical world. Our profession isn't as unique as you make it out to be.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#59

Post by jiganti »

eli wrote: post #29
patio11 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective. This is where price discrimination comes in, and it is staggeringly effective: coupons, sales, discounts, etc etc. The great thing about fixed prices is that there are so many to choose from!

Or even easier: put the same shampoo in three different bottles and charge three different prices.

Or in a more scrupulous light: let some pay for a story and others pay for a commodity.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#60

Post by michaelneale »

axiom wrote: post #14

This is the difference between business-to-business versus buying consumer goods. You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective. So you have a fixed price for everyone. However you can (and should) negotiate with people buying $20k worth of services from you. Historically, the consumer experience is actually the exception, not b2b. Up until fai…

Well on the software side I saw it as the difference between software as a product, versus bespoke development (although it can get fuzzy with enterprise sales, I am sure) - but the principle is the same. Many consumers == no wasting time (and no need) bargaining, vs 1 consumer: you have no choice.
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