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If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

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Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#11

Post by netcan »

noonespecial wrote: post #4

There are two angles at play that got a little mixed together in the video. The first is the hard bargain during initial negotiations (ala the CD for much less) the second (and much uglier) is the restaurant, where after the work is done the client flat refuses to pay. I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad.

The in between one is the woman at the hairdresser.

Get past the point where negotiations usually happen and the deal appears done and your counterpart is committed, then bargain. We're used to it happening as consumers. There we call it bait & switch.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#12

Post by steveklabnik »

maxawaytoolong wrote: post #7

This sort of negotiation is common for things like design, photography, video, music, illustration and other creative assets. Based on the production values I'm assuming the video comes from that world, rather than the programming world.

My designer buddy says "oh yeah, that's a really old designer thing."

You appear to be correct.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#13

Post by softbuilder »

noonespecial wrote: post #4

There are two angles at play that got a little mixed together in the video. The first is the hard bargain during initial negotiations (ala the CD for much less) the second (and much uglier) is the restaurant, where after the work is done the client flat refuses to pay. I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad.

The difference is that a CD is a commodity. People are not. Certainly there is a marketplace at work, but even if you do view programmers or designers as commoditized, no one wants to be treated that way. It's ugly behavior. (Although in my experience that is usually ignorance, not malice.)

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#14

Post by axiom »

This is the difference between business-to-business versus buying consumer goods. You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective. So you have a fixed price for everyone. However you can (and should) negotiate with people buying $20k worth of services from you.

Historically, the consumer experience is actually the exception, not b2b. Up until fairly recently it was standard practice to haggle for everything you buy. It's only the rise of the middle class and of huge companies that sell goods/services to millions that brought about this new idea of fixed prices that aren't open to negotiation.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#15

Post by albemuth »

maxawaytoolong wrote: post #7

This sort of negotiation is common for things like design, photography, video, music, illustration and other creative assets. Based on the production values I'm assuming the video comes from that world, rather than the programming world.

You're right, if it were about programming there would have to be a parody for file recovery and windows installs.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#16

Post by bmcleod »

axiom wrote: post #14

This is the difference between business-to-business versus buying consumer goods. You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective. So you have a fixed price for everyone. However you can (and should) negotiate with people buying $20k worth of services from you. Historically, the consumer experience is actually the exception, not b2b. Up until fai…

Slightly related: In pretty much any store which has sales people that come and talk to you those people have the ability to knock 5-10% off if you ask for it. Cheap things aren't worth negotiating a lot for, but they certainly can be negotiated and the other side will quite happily make a small concession normally since it pays off in happy customers.

This is why always asking for a discount is worth it.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#17

Post by eof »

softbuilder wrote: post #13
noonespecial wrote: post #4

There are two angles at play that got a little mixed together in the video. The first is the hard bargain during initial negotiations (ala the CD for much less) the second (and much uglier) is the restaurant, where after the work is done the client flat refuses to pay. I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad.

The difference is that a CD is a commodity. People are not. Certainly there is a marketplace at work, but even if you do view programmers or designers as commoditized, no one wants to be treated that way. It's ugly behavior. (Although in my experience that is usually ignorance, not malice.)

CD?

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#18

Post by trotsky »

noonespecial wrote: post #4

There are two angles at play that got a little mixed together in the video. The first is the hard bargain during initial negotiations (ala the CD for much less) the second (and much uglier) is the restaurant, where after the work is done the client flat refuses to pay. I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad.

It does go both ways, though. I'm a software developer/consultant and am sympathetic to the video but lets look at from the other side.

Most pro level consulting teams work open ended time and materials contracts. There's very good reasons for this, but this definitely gets abused to deliver a project that was never expected to come in on budget. It also exposes the client to the effects of bad management or other incompetence without a lot of redress.

Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double.

The hard bargaining can go both ways too. I've included what I considered ridiculous rates in a first draft of a proposal (to give me room to negotiate) only to have them often accepted without a blink. In fact, I'm quite sure not having a standard rate card has been responsible for hundreds of thousands of extra money over the years.

It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep.

If you have a contract where's the after the fact negotiation come from anyway? Are they really willing to say then sue me?

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#19

Post by dholowiski »

eof wrote: post #17
softbuilder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that a CD is a commodity. People are not. Certainly there is a marketplace at work, but even if you do view programmers or designers as commoditized, no one wants to be treated that way. It's ugly behavior. (Although in my experience that is usually ignorance, not malice.)

CD?

Shiny things they used to put un-ripped MP3's on.

Re: If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming

#20

Post by jwh »

The video shows perfectly why unwritten/verbal/implied contracts are to be avoided at all cost.

Against my better judgement I recently completed some work without a written contract. It was exactly like the restaurant scene: they'd received the services and used them but started questioning the bill (after it became overdue).

I still find it strange that people view other people as a commodity like oil or pork bellies yet they expect ridiculous returns, akin to a barrel of oil spontaneously duplicating and selling itself for $300

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