Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#91

Post by glbrew » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:44 AM UTC

fyoving wrote: post #69

justinph wrote: post #44

Dear Justice Department: Take a look at google AMP and how they use it to strong-arm publishers by linking it to search placement. You'll find some stuff.

People don't seem to understand how this stuff works in the US, Google has full editorial control over their search results protected by the first amendment and that right was affirmed in court time and time again: https://searchengineland.com/another-court-affirms-googles-f... If you don't like their free no lock in service go elsewhere, and that's why there is no sherman act case here, which is why if the DOJ actua…

I'm not a lawyer but the first amendment argument is a separate concern than antitrust violations. You can exercise your first amendment rights while still breaching antitrust law.

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#92

Post by mark_l_watson » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:45 AM UTC

If, and it is an impossible if, the big nine or ten AI companies (mostly in USA and China) could be split into smaller companies like Judge Green did to AT&T so many years ago, then, I think that would overall be a good thing.

However, it is not right for the large companies in just one country to be split up.

Piketty in Capital in the 21st Century makes good points on how mass amounts of capital earn more money than mass amounts of labor. It is the same winner take all situation in high tech.

It is easy conceptually: governments just need to apply the law fairly. But in my country (USA) corporate interests have almost totally co-opted both main political parties and control most of the regulatory institutions.

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#93

Post by el_programmador » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:45 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #66

ggm wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply almost immediately says you think a jury could be swayed by argument, sentiment or both. Does that not mean an antitrust suit may actually be reasonable, judged by a potently prosecutor? I think you meant "I don't want them found guilty" which is a different thing. If you really think there is no case to answer I don't think you understand what an antitrust case is about. It's about market dominance and an…

Any antitrust theory against Google would be pretty abstract given that they don’t charge for either search or Chrome. But the pop up trying to get you to switch to Chrome when you go to Google search is pretty much what you’d put in a textbook to illustrate leveraging a monopoly in one sector to gain market share in another. It’s extremely concrete and intuitive. That doesn’t mean it makes the case, of course. But i…

On that note, even Internet Explorer (IE) was bundled freely, Microsoft never charged a dime for it. Why was anti-trust pursued against Microsoft then?

Honestly, I see no difference between that scenario and this. If anything, Google has been a lot more guilty than for just monopolizing on a browser here.

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#94

Post by jeffk_teh_haxor » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #33

While I think an antitrust suit against Google would be a waste of time, they really need to stop recommending Chrome every time you do a Google search with a different browser. Just stop, that will not play well to a jury.

Shrug. Windows 10 keeps nudging me to use Edge.

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#95

Post by fyoving » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

glbrew wrote: post #91

fyoving wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't seem to understand how this stuff works in the US, Google has full editorial control over their search results protected by the first amendment and that right was affirmed in court time and time again: https://searchengineland.com/another-court-affirms-googles-f... If you don't like their free no lock in service go elsewhere, and that's why there is no sherman act case here, which is why if the DOJ actua…

I'm not a lawyer but the first amendment argument is a separate concern than antitrust violations. You can exercise your first amendment rights while still breaching antitrust law.

Depends on what's being investigated here, if the government would actually want to compel Google to alter their search results then it's a first amendment case.

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#96

Post by asr » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

daenz wrote: post #7

Can someone knowledgeable in this area lay out some of the potential anti-trust points that could be shown by the probe?

Starting with the recent EU decisions is probably a good bet. There are three fines the EU imposed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_vs._Google#EU...

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#97

Post by monocasa » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:50 AM UTC

fyoving wrote: post #89

GeekyBear wrote: post #59

The career officials at the FTC recommended antitrust action against Google back in 2012, but the political appointees shut them down. >When the Federal Trade Commission neared a momentous decision on whether to charge Google with violating antitrust laws in January 2013, the White House was watching closely. New emails uncovered by the Campaign for Accountability, a public interest watchdog organization, show that a…

That's one interpretation by interested parties another would be that enforcement lawyers are always aggressive and those who make the decision in the end would have to weigh the odds of winning in court and unanimously they decides not. Regardless, the FTC would have had a much better chance than the DOJ as they have specific broad powers more suitable to this case.

Google was also very positively connected to the Obama administration. It was some googlers that stepped in and turned around healthcare.gov for instance. I've heard a lot of rumors that they gave a lot of data access to the campaigns too.

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#98

Post by bilbo0s » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:50 AM UTC

atomical wrote: post #56

bilbo0s wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your reply almost immediately says you think a jury could be swayed by argument, sentiment or both... If this goes to a jury, Google will definitely get off. I seriously hope that doesn't happen.

I wouldn't be so sure. Juries can be convinced of anything if you look at past judgements against Monsanto. I'm not saying that I think Google is innocent but often the evidence is very difficult for the lay person to interpret (especially when it is absent).

>Juries can be convinced of anything...

Which is exactly why they'd get off.

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#99

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:51 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #66

ggm wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply almost immediately says you think a jury could be swayed by argument, sentiment or both. Does that not mean an antitrust suit may actually be reasonable, judged by a potently prosecutor? I think you meant "I don't want them found guilty" which is a different thing. If you really think there is no case to answer I don't think you understand what an antitrust case is about. It's about market dominance and an…

Any antitrust theory against Google would be pretty abstract given that they don’t charge for either search or Chrome. But the pop up trying to get you to switch to Chrome when you go to Google search is pretty much what you’d put in a textbook to illustrate leveraging a monopoly in one sector to gain market share in another. It’s extremely concrete and intuitive. That doesn’t mean it makes the case, of course. But i…

What is your operant model of monopoly and antitrust?

Re: Justice Department Is Preparing Antitrust Investigation of Google

#100

Post by ajdlinux » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 2:52 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #41

781 wrote: post #23

I'd be more interested in Google/Amazon/FB paying taxes than in anti-trust actions.

They pay a ton of taxes :), payroll, property, etc. Corporate taxes they pay on profits if you invest a ton you can deduct it from profits. Nothing nefarious going on here.

> Corporate taxes they pay on profits if you invest a ton you can deduct it from profits. Nothing nefarious going on here.

One's definition of "deductions" and "profits" can, of course, depend on how much one spends on tax lawyers, one's appetite for testing the untested boundaries of the relevant tax laws, and one's willingness to do fun and interesting things with structuring international subsidiaries.

The ultimate result may or may not correlate with what the average citizen would accept as legitimate. Whether you think this is okay is a matter of opinion.