Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 233 posts

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#51

Post by Buttons840 »

orblivion wrote: post #37
math_and_stuff wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bill explicitly prevents that behavior. "The 'opt-in' nature...would set it apart from other state internet privacy laws... the proposed Maine law also would prohibit any [ISP] from making the sale of customer data part of its mandatory [TOS]. It also could not charge higher fees to customers who refuse to opt in" https://www.pressherald.com/2019/05/29/maine-on-track-to-pas...

They can't charge more for refusing to opt in, so nobody will opt in. The only alternative seems to be a hike in rates for everybody. Which isn't necessarily bad, it's arguably better that people actually know what cost they're paying. It's just naive to assume that this is ISPs getting some "extra money" on the side. This is factored into the revenue from the service. Now they'll have to adjust their models.

> Which isn't necessarily bad

One positive is that it changes the criteria of success in the market from "who can provide quality internet at a low price, and mine and sell the most data" to simply "who can provide quality internet at the lowest price".

When new companies enter the internet market (if such a thing still happens?) they will be asking "how can we provide good internet?" instead of "how can we mine more data from our users?"

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#52

Post by jonhohle »

yeukhon wrote: post #32
asark wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should ban collecting tons if info about people, for all companies, period. We won't, because banks and CC companies are very into doing that and the politicians love them, but we should.

No. Because many businesses rely on data available. FAANG would be out of business then.

I worked at Amazon, which has a ton of data about your shopping habits that allow them to make targeted decisions on a customer's behalf. You know what? The vast majority of that data (at the time) came from observing customer behavior on properties owned by Amazon.

In my mind, that's perfectly reasonable - what I do within the boundaries of their business is our shared interaction and we both have the opportunity to make decisions based on those interactions. The major exception for Amazon is affiliate links, which, for the business i was in, weren't used as data sources.

Apple is not significantly different. Between Apple and me, who else knows our business and what does Apple know about me outside of my interactions with them (maybe more now with Apple Pay).

For the most part, Netflix is the same. Sure they know what I watch, but why does that matter if they're only using it to improve their own business and make programming choices?

Google and Facebook, on the other hand, blanket the internet with tracking beacons, read my email, keep shadow profiles (I don't have a facebook account, never have had one, but I'm sure they know more about me than I'd like), eavesdrop on conversations (I suppose Amazon is in that business now, too), track locations, steal contact data, trick people training their ML algos, etc. As is said, "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.", FB and Google have far more than that and a single bad actor with access to that data could make life extremely difficult for just about anyone in the world.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#53

Post by shanty »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #41

Still can't wrap my head around the idea that they even have my browsing data. Just connect me to the Internet and mind your own business.

Boy have I got a surprise for you. I was an engineer at a web analytics firm a decade ago and yes, ISPs have your web browsing data and are selling it left and right. Also apps, Cell phone companies, etc. Our company bought all that data. and when that wasn't enough, we created apps that collected even more. Every click and ajax request, etc.... timestamped.

Yes, there are analysts sifting through your browsing data (if you're lucky, vaguely anonymized). Yes, I heard countless stories of this data being abused and misused. I simply can't imagine it has gotten much better by now.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#54

Post by DannyBee »

inetknght wrote: post #40
ryanisnan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each and every time? As a user who understands and consents to that request, that would be incredibly annoying.

Your consent should be considered an outlier and should not be used to hinder my lack thereof.

Saying "I think everyone who disagrees with me is an outlier" is not a particularly helpful way to further a discussion.

Would you care to present evidence?

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#55

Post by mrguyorama »

zerocrates wrote: post #34
oldjokes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what "use" means here. Is it now illegal for them to log your traffic at all? I think that would be the ideal way to phrase the law, you can't even write to a logfile/dbms much less do anything with that data unless the user opts in.

> The bill provides other exceptions under which a provider may use, disclose, sell or permit access to customer personal information. There's probably a "as necessary to provide the service" exception more than large enough to encompass internal logging.

It is section 4

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#56

Post by qwsxyh »

DannyBee wrote: post #54
inetknght wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your consent should be considered an outlier and should not be used to hinder my lack thereof.

Saying "I think everyone who disagrees with me is an outlier" is not a particularly helpful way to further a discussion. Would you care to present evidence?

This is such a peak HN comment. Evidence of what, exactly?

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#57

Post by mrguyorama »

jonahhorowitz wrote: post #50

Why not just prevent them from collecting it in the first place?

A significant amount of the data is stuff that will normally be logged for diagnostics, billing, complying with legal requests etc, ie normal ISP business.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#59

Post by qwsxyh »

yeukhon wrote: post #32
asark wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should ban collecting tons if info about people, for all companies, period. We won't, because banks and CC companies are very into doing that and the politicians love them, but we should.

No. Because many businesses rely on data available. FAANG would be out of business then.

Yeah, good. I value my privacy far more than somebody's profit.

Re: Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent

#60

Post by khawkins »

malloreon wrote: post #35

I look forward to the day when selling user's data requires the user's opt-in every single time a third party wants to access that data. No more "yes to all" or allowing blanket usage in TOS/EULAs. People who use apps that sell their data should be bombarded with requests to use that data each and every single time, until they either decide the app isn't worth it or the app decides they should try a different busines…

I really don't understand the extreme hostility to data collection and data markets. No one likes ads, but no one wants to have to pay a subscription fee to every single site on the internet. If I'm going to see ads, I'd rather them be something I might potentially find useful than something irrelevant. If I end up buying their product, the exchange is mutually beneficial and both parties walk away with value from the exchange.

What's really great is that it can really help small businesses and startups over large corporations. Brands like Coca Cola can afford to canvas the world with their logo, but a business with a handful of employees must use their marketing budget very carefully. User data and profiling makes it realistic to find those people naturally through their internet habits.

Even if this is being used by politicians, I don't see the harm. If you think people can't think for themselves in the face of political advertising campaigns, then I don't see why you'd also believe that those same people can be trusted with the responsibility of the vote.

I can understand the need for treating data carefully and making sure the data is sufficiently scrubbed for personal identification, but this issue is something different.

Post reply on HN