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Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

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Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#151
post #31
post #7

> Captioning his find, Burrows said that the fantasy writer had “accurately predicted how the internet would propagate and legitimise fake news” It's like when you have one clock, you know what time it is. When you have two clocks they're always somewhat different, and so you're no longer certain of the time, and have less faith in clocks. Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along wi…

Building on that analogy, the trouble with one clock is you only know what time it is if it's correct . If you take the time to verify and/or set it against an accurate time source, then this is no problem. However, it seems more and more people are skipping that verification step, and just assuming the clock is right. When presented with two conflicting clocks, instead of questioning what's going on and trying to fi…

Agreed, the thing is it seems that previous singular clocks were somehow cared for in a way to keep it in the middle. It's no perfect information but systemically, it made everything run somehow at a single pace.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#153
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building on that analogy, the trouble with one clock is you only know what time it is if it's correct . If you take the time to verify and/or set it against an accurate time source, then this is no problem. However, it seems more and more people are skipping that verification step, and just assuming the clock is right. When presented with two conflicting clocks, instead of questioning what's going on and trying to fi…

Agreed, the thing is it seems that previous singular clocks were somehow cared for in a way to keep it in the middle. It's no perfect information but systemically, it made everything run somehow at a single pace.

Maybe that's true for clocks, but it's certainly never been true for the press.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#154
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building on that analogy, the trouble with one clock is you only know what time it is if it's correct . If you take the time to verify and/or set it against an accurate time source, then this is no problem. However, it seems more and more people are skipping that verification step, and just assuming the clock is right. When presented with two conflicting clocks, instead of questioning what's going on and trying to fi…

In attempting to dismiss the point Bill Gates gets it partly right. 'you'll only receive a piece of text through levels of direction, like a friend who says "Hey go read this"...', and says so as though it is some arbiter of quality as they would have verified first. Not that people generally verified that much anyway, but if it comes from people we trust and like we probably don't engage natural scepticism. Not like…

I believe that pre internet society naturally crafted trust networks that, even far from perfect truth, were vastly superior to the scattered noise we have today. Unless we evolve a way for people to get massively interested and educated to be their own trusted filter.. (not impossible ..)

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#155
post #7

> Captioning his find, Burrows said that the fantasy writer had “accurately predicted how the internet would propagate and legitimise fake news” It's like when you have one clock, you know what time it is. When you have two clocks they're always somewhat different, and so you're no longer certain of the time, and have less faith in clocks. Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along wi…

Terry wasn't arguing that there wasn't fake news before the internet, but that it would be easier to create and make it seem legitimate. Harder to suss out the origins than you would something in real life. And it's not just biased news, like the way two clocks might give a slightly different time, but actual fake news and 'facts'.

This is not true. There are fake news that have existed for thousands of years (religion), and the mass communication seems to have a negative impact even on those strongholds of fiction.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue here. Your bullet points are equally applicable to "alternative" media outlets and "mainstream" media do often link out to government reports, sources, etc in their articles.

Maybe we're consuming different sets of MSM and alternative sources, but my experience is not only that they are not equally applicable, but that your suggestion that they are is completely ludicrous. 95%+ of MSM articles I read that reference an external document do not link to it. MSM articles are usually littered with links, but they're internal links to lists of other articles by the same MSM outlet about the top…

> the idea of a blogger or YouTuber doing this - just, say, declaring that the government has announced something without providing any corroboration

This is literally what Alex Jones does.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#158
post #78

There’s a great book on the counterculture roots of personal computing and the internet by John Markoff. [1] Arguably we are in some ways living through the end result of a thought experiment conceived by a bunch of LSD tripping hippies in the 60s: “what if we wired a billion brains together? That’d be far out, right?” Or more simply, we’re experiencing the “disruption” of computing that was promised. This is not a v…

I also strongly recommend you to read From Counterculture to Cyberculture: Stewart Brand, the Whole Earth Network and the Rise of Digital Utopianism by Fred Turner [0] together with What the Dormouse Said. The two books are really an eye-opener and revealed how everything connected together.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Turner_(author)

> Or more simply, we’re experiencing the “disruption” of computing that was promised. This is not a value judgment: there are tons of good outcomes of this and there are bad outcomes as well. And what’s a “good” outcome vs a “bad” one is going to be highly subjective and debated ad infinitum.

Yes! Recently, David Perell wrote an excellent 13,000 word essay, "What the Hell is Going On?" [1], which examines and analyzes the current chaos in politics, business and education, and concluded that it was caused by the transformation from a information-deficient to a information-rich society, and part of the article has a similar argument just like mine.

[1] https://www.perell.com/blog/what-the-hell-is-going-on

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It's interesting to see that the personal computing and the Internet was envisioned by our pioneers as an open, peer-to-peer, decentralized structure, and they hope to bring the world to a freer and more egalitarian future (Cyber-utopianism). They were the people who laid out the crucial groundwork of everything (PC, Web, microchips, crypto, etc) throughout the 70s.

In the 80s, this Cyber-utopianism evolved into Cyberdelic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberdelic) and cyberpunk, computer was seen as the new LSD. The cyberpunks of the 1980s and 1990s embraced technology and the hacker ethics. They believed that the Internet could help human beings overcome limits, liberating us from authority (crypto-anarchism) and even enabling us to transcend space, time, and body (transhumanism).

Later, a group of entrepreneurs absorbed this idealism (see the early Wired magazine, it was fascinating!) and transformed it into the Californian Ideology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Californian_Ideology) and created the dotCom bubble in the 90s, finally bringing us to the present world.

But if we compare the original vision to the web dominated by Silicon Valley today, one would say that the Valley already betrayed this vision at large. What the FAANG empire have claimed to do, is not what they were/are actually doing. (On the bright side, the Free Software Movement succeed, and the Electronics Frontier Foundation is still going strong, but both with little influence compared to the megacorps.)

What happened?

Ideologically speaking, the most straightforward explanation is that the idealism has been sold out to corporations and capitalism for profit. I think this idea is fine and it can explain a lot, but this is a cliche and there's enough criticisms based on this approach that one could found online, so I will stop here and explain it from other perspectives.

Technologically speaking, the whole thing didn't come without warnings from the inside. The first warning came in 1984, from the Free Software Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_movement), it said the objectives of cyber-utopianism is only attainable if the software running on a computer grants freedoms to users, otherwise it would create a dystopia instead; The second warning came from the Cypherpunks Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypherpunk) in the late 80s, it said objectives of cyber-utopianism is only attainable if the computer and network systems are explicitly designed to preserve the security and privacy of the users by utilizing cryptography, otherwise it would create a dystopia instead; the third warning came in late 1990s, from Lawrence Lessig, the founder of the Creative Common movement. He wrote a book called "Code is Law" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_and_Other_Laws_of_Cybersp...), arguing the "cyberspace" doesn't automatically have the liberating properties by itself (envisioned by the original utopianist), but it was actually an effect created by the running code. Whoever controls the code can completely reshape the cyberspace and transform it to a dystopia instead, we must make sure that our democracy, freedom, human rights is coded properly into the computer programs, to achieve this, the government must enforce heavy regulations of the code and the Internet by passing strict laws. This is controversial, but he got the idea (the "cyberspace" doesn't automatically have the liberating properties by itself, we must implement them explicitly), just like the free software hackers or the Cypherpunks. But unfounately, neither solution has been implemented at a large scale.

Finally, I would try replying to the original question: why do we have a problem of "Fake News" newadays? I believe part of the answer is the limitation of all the elitism from the forementioned things. The ideology of the Internet, more or less, has an element of populism. People believed we could change the world by empowering the individuals by freeing computing powers from institutions to the people, and connect them via the Internet, eventually, we can create...

> a postpolitical, non-hierarchical society made possible by cyberware, in which the computer-literate, super-intelligent, open-minded, change-oriented, self-reliant, irreverent free-thinker is the norm and the person who is not internetted and does not think for him or herself and does not question authority is the "problem person".

And it looked pretty good: things appeared to be moving to this direction - the emergent of the Free Software Movement, the Cypherpunk Movement, and early online commmunities such as The WELL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WELL) or Usenet all seemed to prove this point. This was seen as the case even before 2010, when we had the Occupy Movement and The Arab Spring.

But it turns out,

1. It was the populism of the elites. Yes, they were revolutionary, they wanted to make the world a better place by digitizing the human society. Unfortunately, whoever was playing with computers and the Internet in the 1980s-1990s were elites. They have received extensive academic trainings, and/or came from the middle class. So the element of populism played a positive role, it bought us the free software movement, for example. But after all the people and all their dogs have been connected to the web, the same populism would stop playing the original positive role.

2. The development of the Internet was done in the beginning of globalization and the economic boom of 80s neoliberalism. From the 1980s to 2007, the world was following this trend, so there was no major social conflicts that contradicted the idealism of the Internet manifested itself through the web. When the middle east politics started getting destabilized, people celebrated because the revolution was liberal. There was even the "cute cat theory of digital activism", which says when there are funny memes involved, people are more likely to join the political protest of Internet freedom. And it was seen as a good thing - a faceless dictatorial government was overthrown by lolcat. Isn't it the miracle of the postmodern Internet?

But post-2010, this world order started to disintegrate. Now it's clear, that "The Internet is an inherently platform of democracy and equality, which empowered the individuals to be free from the establishment", this narrative from the 80s has been proven to be wishful thinking. This is when the entire thing started to get out of control.

Now it has been clear that ANY idea, can by popularized and supported by a free Internet. Now in the current age of deglobalization and political and economic failure, naturally, extreme post-truth and nationalistic ideas are getting more and more popular support, just like the Arab Spring, both was supported by a number of people who were frustrated by the status quo.

I guess this is how we suddenly got the "Fake News" in recent years. It was simply because the world politics created a big market of the reactionary populism, and the web is the best tool to sell it. It wasn't a significant problem because the market was not as big as today.

The grassroot nature of the Internet started to revolt against its own founding principle, democracy and equality, which made the grassroot nature of the Internet possible in the first place.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#159
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear to me how you are identifying "public" anxiety, as opposed to the anxiety of Washington. We can observe the latter in the behavior of Congress, e.g. The former is unclear. In any case, let's go with "anxiety". Why is there sudden anxiety? Why should we worry about Pizzagate now while we didn't worry about similar things two years ago? The answer is simple: Trump was elected. He is not alone; there is a…

>Why is there sudden anxiety? Why should we worry about Pizzagate now while we didn't worry about similar things two years ago? Because Pizzagate, along with other fake news, misinformation and slander campaigns, appear to have contributed in a nontrivial way to Trump's election, and all of them are by definition complete and utter bullshit. We should worry when obvious nonsense takes precedence in our political disc…

>Because Pizzagate, along with other fake news, misinformation and slander campaigns, appear to have contributed in a nontrivial way to Trump's election, and all of them are by definition complete and utter bullshit.

While keeping this discussion respectful, I would like to propose another hypothesis: that the rise of fake news may correspond severe distaste towards the direction that the country is heading.

There are many people who disliked Obama's policies. There are many people who liked Obama but disliked the country's direction at the end of his second term. There are many people who disliked Trump's political opponent. And finally, there are many of the people who fall into these aforementioned camps who felt a level of entitlement among elitists whom casually dismissed their concerns.

Imagine hearing that your daughter lost the track and field state championships to someone who used to be a boy. Or seeing violent criminals get away from cops because the cops were too afraid to do their job. Or having your gun taken away from you in a high-crime neighborhood with a police response time of an hour.

Imagine people in those positions, who feel that bureaucrats in Washington D.C. are making what feel to be obvious stupid decisions. Can you imagine why they would be more likely to believe that those bureaucrats are involved in a child sex trafficking ring?

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're stretching the definition of fake news to encompass instances that would otherwise not fit. Parent also states that only the church and the royalty had such power. If we are going to extend the definition of fake news to include defamation and false accusations, then the church hardly had a monopoly on the matter since they often responded to such allegations when spread by the commoners. The overwhelming majo…

I suppose if you're really want to be pedantic this wasn't completely limited to the church and monarchs. If enough people in a village wanted to suppress some information, or promulgate some falsehood, they could intimidate others into compliance. Plenty of Italian city-states had power structures more centered around wealthy merchants rather than nobility. So sure, it wasn't entirely limited to the church and nobil…

It's not being pedantic to point out that OP's assertion was false. Especially given the context of the thread.

>The key observation (...)

That was not his/her key observation though. I'm happy to argue with this one (anti-monarchist and anti-clerical libeling and propaganda has been a well-established business for centuries), but I was hoping someone could provide concrete examples regarding the original point instead of alluding to ill-defined historical events in the hope that the hazy understanding and possible bias of the reader would fill up the void. Very fake news-esque way of making a point by today's standard ;)

>And on a side note, I don't see why false accusations of crime or violation of social norms don't count as fake news. Such accusations are probably some of the most common instances of fake news.

Sharing overlap while having disjoint components does not make two definitions equal. Especially for an anachronistic term that's awkwardly trying to be applied retroactively in the present discussion. There already exist well-defined terms for what you are referring to, why not call them that.

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