Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995) • Hacker News Board

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#131

Post by krapp » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

astazangasta wrote: post #115

krapp wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be a Republican, but you are nonetheless parroting their propaganda. Linking the phenomenon of fake news with a liberal media conspiracy while downplaying or discrediting any connection it had with Trump's campaign and his supporters is parroting their propaganda. >Meanwhile the biggest "fake news" item of the past few years was Russiagate, which escaped your list along with widespread condemnation from e…

It's not clear to me how you are identifying "public" anxiety, as opposed to the anxiety of Washington. We can observe the latter in the behavior of Congress, e.g. The former is unclear. In any case, let's go with "anxiety". Why is there sudden anxiety? Why should we worry about Pizzagate now while we didn't worry about similar things two years ago? The answer is simple: Trump was elected. He is not alone; there is a…

>Why is there sudden anxiety? Why should we worry about Pizzagate now while we didn't worry about similar things two years ago?

Because Pizzagate, along with other fake news, misinformation and slander campaigns, appear to have contributed in a nontrivial way to Trump's election, and all of them are by definition complete and utter bullshit.

We should worry when obvious nonsense takes precedence in our political discourse over actual fact.

You seem to believe "Russiagate" is fake news, so why aren't you as concerned about Pizzagate or any of the other anti-left conspiracy theories as you are about Russiagate? Is fake news only a problem when it attacks the right, and only a solution when it attacks the left?

>They are desperate to understand how they can reverse it; but they refuse to consider that their ideology is simply unpopular.

But Pizzagate is not an attempt to reverse any trend, or a legitimate criticism of any ideology, nor does it present a valid political alternative to any existing policies. It's just an extension of an already established right-wing trope linking liberalism and supporters of progressive ideas (particularly gay rights) with sexual assault and pedophilia.

Again, we're not talking about actual news, but news that is literally fake. The Democratic Party does not run a secret sex-slave network and Hillary Clinton does not practice satanic pedophilic rituals. You and others may not support Clinton or Macron, but Pizzagate doesn't help your cause.

>Instead, the problem must be "fake news".

The problem is fake news. And the problem is people like yourself, who seem not to believe that the falsehood of fake news is actually a problem, as long as it targets the people you disagree with.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#132

Post by blackflame7000 » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

gregmac wrote: post #31

hirundo wrote: post #7

> Captioning his find, Burrows said that the fantasy writer had “accurately predicted how the internet would propagate and legitimise fake news” It's like when you have one clock, you know what time it is. When you have two clocks they're always somewhat different, and so you're no longer certain of the time, and have less faith in clocks. Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along wi…

Building on that analogy, the trouble with one clock is you only know what time it is if it's correct . If you take the time to verify and/or set it against an accurate time source, then this is no problem. However, it seems more and more people are skipping that verification step, and just assuming the clock is right. When presented with two conflicting clocks, instead of questioning what's going on and trying to fi…

News by definition is a 2nd hand source of information. You are relying on someone to accurately report a situation based on the information given to them by their sources. There's always likely to be parts missing and it's important to look at all the "Clocks" to get the whole picture. With the web, it's very easy to think you are reading from multiple sources when in reality they are all owned by Verizon Media.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#133

Post by kp212 » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #45

Fake news has always existed. The only difference between today and hundreds of years ago is who had the most reach. Back in the past only the church and royalty had the power to spread (fake) news. Nowadays anyone can go on social media and do the same.

Exactly this.

Ill just add fake news always existed, its just that we never questioned the source.

It may be an ugly truth, but I for one am glad I don't believe what I read on the web or see on TV or at the very least take it at face value.

And I don't want the next gen Bill Gates to tell me what's ok and not ok for me to read/watch or question.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#134

Post by coldtea » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #109

coldtea wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along with everything else. Contrary to the claim that the internet legitimized it, it made us more aware of how common it is, delegitimizing all news sources in the way that multiple clocks delegitimize clocks. It's also that those in power would love it for their opinions to be the "authoritative" ones and only ones permitted to be heard. Same…

The problem is that we've gone beyond voicing criticism to constructing parallel, unconnected realities. It's not like there's one side praising the Vietnam War and another side criticizing it, it's like there's one side saying "hey, there's a war going on in Vietnam" and another side saying "no there isn't." And the "no there isn't" side can burrow comfortably into a huge mass of media telling them that their realit…

>The problem is that we've gone beyond voicing criticism to constructing parallel, unconnected realities. It's not like there's one side praising the Vietnam War and another side criticizing it, it's like there's one side saying "hey, there's a war going on in Vietnam" and another side saying "no there isn't."

We always had that too. Not for "a war going on" or not, but e.g. about atrocities "our side" did during the war (which establishment media would downplay), or private interests served by such and such law (which establishment media would hide).

Those were alternate realities (e.g. are X foreign group "freedom fighters" or "CIA sponsored death squads"), not just simple disagreements on technical points.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#135

Post by blackflame7000 » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:33 PM UTC

dmos62 wrote: post #72

pjc50 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a stopped clock is right twice a day. So all the stopped clock merchant has to do is wait for the clock to line up, then shout from the rooftops that they have the right time. It's not enough to be correct by coincidence, process matters. We see this often enough in scientific papers where the statistics come into question. News process is different, especially given how sources work. Not everyone is willing to b…

Clocks are a great analogy. As pointed out, the problem is in verification. Say everyone has a clock and they're all showing different time. How do you actually get to the ground truth? Observe and measure planetary motion? That's too much hassle. This is where the analogy cracks a bit (or does it?). What you want is for your clock to show the same time as others' clocks do, so you join a group where you synchronize…

Truth is constant, lies are variable. With news, you need to look at stories that use different sources and find out the consistencies. The problem on the web is that so many articles are plagiarized or paraphrased from an original source like the AP.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#136

Post by macspoofing » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

Lucky guess. I wouldn't put any stock into Pratchett's ability to predict the future. In 90s there was no way to predict how the internet would shape out and what challenges we would struggle with, and which ones were non-issues. The flip side of Pratchett prediction is Krugman's famous statement that the internet would not have a bigger effect on the economy than the fax machine. He was obviously hilariously wrong, but when he made that prediction he could have been right.

Closer to home, I see people making all kinds of predictions on the great impact that cryptocurrencies will have but it's also reasonable to think they are a fad. We'll see.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#137

Post by coldtea » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

astazangasta wrote: post #73

coldtea wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along with everything else. Contrary to the claim that the internet legitimized it, it made us more aware of how common it is, delegitimizing all news sources in the way that multiple clocks delegitimize clocks. It's also that those in power would love it for their opinions to be the "authoritative" ones and only ones permitted to be heard. Same…

Fake news is neither about the availability of multiple perspectives, which have been around for millenia, nor about the power of the Internet, which has been around for decades, nor about misrepresentations of fact, which have been instrumental to every war the US has prosecuted in the post-WW2 period. The term "fake news" appeared, along with an obsessive need to "fact check" and censor, following the election of T…

It's not just about Trump though.

The establishment, power players, etc, wants to control the narratives, and be able to label "fake" whatever they want, whether it's against Trump or in his favor. They'll want the same power tomorrow too, when Trump is long gone.

Back in the day, part of what's called "fake news", and basically the part the establishment didn't like, was labelled "disinformation".

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#138

Post by fzeroracer » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

kingkawn wrote: post #111

hirundo wrote: post #7

> Captioning his find, Burrows said that the fantasy writer had “accurately predicted how the internet would propagate and legitimise fake news” It's like when you have one clock, you know what time it is. When you have two clocks they're always somewhat different, and so you're no longer certain of the time, and have less faith in clocks. Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along wi…

I am grateful to the internet for exposing how deeply our social consensus was dependent on a particular culture and ruling class owning the means of disseminating information, ie newspapers and tv channels. With the means to distribute ideas more openly available there has come both a broader range of views across the population and a noticeable weakening of the ruling class’s ability to direct public attention and…

This hasn't changed at all, only that the way the ruling classes exert influence. One just needs to look at Facebook to understand how the field has changed and I would argue for the objective worse.

The so-called broadening of ideas isnt the result of giving a voice to the voiceless, but strategically decrying science and research in the pursuit of profits. This is the heart of the argument against climate change and has resulted in a noticable weakening of science as a basis for truth and rationale.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#139

Post by XCabbage » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

mtberatwork wrote: post #120

XCabbage wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it equally unjustified? I trust alternative media because they show me the primary sources they rely upon. Mainstream media basically never does this; gatekeeping access to knowledge is, for whatever reason, a key part of how they operate, noticeably imposed upon all their writers. The following things are, as far as I've witnessed, universally true of every mainstream media source out there: * If they report…

I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue here. Your bullet points are equally applicable to "alternative" media outlets and "mainstream" media do often link out to government reports, sources, etc in their articles.

Maybe we're consuming different sets of MSM and alternative sources, but my experience is not only that they are not equally applicable, but that your suggestion that they are is completely ludicrous.

95%+ of MSM articles I read that reference an external document do not link to it. MSM articles are usually littered with links, but they're internal links to lists of other articles by the same MSM outlet about the topic. Meanwhile, the idea of a blogger or YouTuber doing this - just, say, declaring that the government has announced something without providing any corroboration - is basically unimaginable to me; I've never seen it happen as far as I can recall.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#140

Post by kingkawn » Thu, May 30, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #138

kingkawn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am grateful to the internet for exposing how deeply our social consensus was dependent on a particular culture and ruling class owning the means of disseminating information, ie newspapers and tv channels. With the means to distribute ideas more openly available there has come both a broader range of views across the population and a noticeable weakening of the ruling class’s ability to direct public attention and…

This hasn't changed at all, only that the way the ruling classes exert influence. One just needs to look at Facebook to understand how the field has changed and I would argue for the objective worse. The so-called broadening of ideas isnt the result of giving a voice to the voiceless, but strategically decrying science and research in the pursuit of profits. This is the heart of the argument against climate change an…

Science institutionally wed itself so completely to the previous ruling social structure that it is natural that it would be undermined as collateral damage in the battle for cultural influence.