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Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

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Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#111
post #7

> Captioning his find, Burrows said that the fantasy writer had “accurately predicted how the internet would propagate and legitimise fake news” It's like when you have one clock, you know what time it is. When you have two clocks they're always somewhat different, and so you're no longer certain of the time, and have less faith in clocks. Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along wi…

I am grateful to the internet for exposing how deeply our social consensus was dependent on a particular culture and ruling class owning the means of disseminating information, ie newspapers and tv channels. With the means to distribute ideas more openly available there has come both a broader range of views across the population and a noticeable weakening of the ruling class’s ability to direct public attention and belief toward strategic conclusions.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#112

Fake news has always existed, and society builds up an immunity whenever it evolves into a new medium. I don't see the illegitimate Wordpress-based sites that peddle lies as any different than the National Enquirer-esque print tabloids or radio conspiracy theorists of yesteryear. Folks who didn't grow up with the internet may have trouble telling the difference, and even Millennials constantly fall for biased social…

>a temporary illness until media consumers wise up

Not exactly. Media consumers do need to wise up. However expecting the consumers to bear the entire burden of verification is naive. Consumers want someone to do the verification for them (at least partially) because it's tedious and time consuming. That's why reputation paid off back then.

That's why before the internet the mechanism of information propagation was built in a way to amplify proved, respectable media. The social media on the internet have created a mechanism that can amplify any information. Even worse than that - it amplifies poor quality information with sensationalist clickbaity headlines significantly better that good quality but not so sensationalist information. Add to the picture the proliferation of click-based advertisement and you will see why sensationalism nowadays pays off more than reputation.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#113
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building on that analogy, the trouble with one clock is you only know what time it is if it's correct . If you take the time to verify and/or set it against an accurate time source, then this is no problem. However, it seems more and more people are skipping that verification step, and just assuming the clock is right. When presented with two conflicting clocks, instead of questioning what's going on and trying to fi…

In attempting to dismiss the point Bill Gates gets it partly right. 'you'll only receive a piece of text through levels of direction, like a friend who says "Hey go read this"...', and says so as though it is some arbiter of quality as they would have verified first. Not that people generally verified that much anyway, but if it comes from people we trust and like we probably don't engage natural scepticism. Not like…

not really. I migth have dozen of friends who did read, and did figure out it was BS.

But the systems optimize for positive interactions (which generates eyeballs/pageview/ad impressions). So even if a dozen friends dismissed something, correctly, that one dumb Shitposter will get the word accross and the sytem will benefit the thumbs up with a zero effort propagation (one click) versus the critic (time to sit down, write an argument, work to have that thumbsuped... or o HN: create an account years in the past, acumulates karma just so you can downvote things that are actually wrong).

the incentives are the problem (advertising) not presence of wrong content amidst good content.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#114
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it equally unjustified? I trust alternative media because they show me the primary sources they rely upon. Mainstream media basically never does this; gatekeeping access to knowledge is, for whatever reason, a key part of how they operate, noticeably imposed upon all their writers. The following things are, as far as I've witnessed, universally true of every mainstream media source out there: * If they report…

I think it is equally unjustified. If people tended to do their due diligence about sources, then fake news wouldn't be a problem, and verifiably false and incredulous memes wouldn't have any social or political influence. But they do, because people mistake cynicism for intellectual rigor, and don't believe they need to check the sources for the alternative media, because it's enough to simply mistrust the mainstrea…

I think breaking things down into "alternative" and "mainstream" is not productive. I see no particular reason to come in with an a priori assumption that the mainstream media should be given a default presumption of truthfulness until proven otherwise, and the alternative media should be presumed false unless proved otherwise. To me, they're all in the same category to start with, and each media source starts presumed false unless they prove themselves worthy of trust.

I mean, seriously... why should they be given a default presumption of truthfulness? Because they were... there? Because they were so honest before? But how do you know that? You can't just the honesty of a source if it's effectively the only source you have. (And in practice, despite there being "three news networks", they seem to have been the same source in practice. I can only remember minor sniping between the various sources every once in a while.) Why default to trusting them? I'd say it's basically just the availability heuristic at play, in a way. It's easy to see the availability of effectively a single source, and approximate that to honestly, but you have no rational basis to make that approximation.

If anything, after decades of fairly unquestioned and monolithic dominance, the simple heuristic of "unchecked power corrupts" suggests that the mainstream media is virtually 100% likely to be deeply corrupt. I find the idea that the media was allowed to operate in a state of highly ethical reporting for decades and it simply never occurred to any commercial, governmental, or intelligence entity that "Gee, golly, it sure would be useful to exert a lot of control over that" to be an idea that requires a degree of trust in commercial, governmental, and intelligence entities that I can find only marginal evidence in favor of and significant evidence against.

The media often actively seeks to manipulate and deceive, and provides biased and incredulous sources to do so, all the time.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#115
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't appear then, but it became a grave concern at that point. Meanwhile conspiracy theories have existed for ever. Pizzagate is nuts, but so is belief in reptilian aliens controlling governments, etc. The energy to contain these stories escalated dramatically, with Zuckerberg being dragged in front of Congress, etc., after Trump's election. Meanwhile the biggest "fake news" item of the past few years was Russia…

You may not be a Republican, but you are nonetheless parroting their propaganda. Linking the phenomenon of fake news with a liberal media conspiracy while downplaying or discrediting any connection it had with Trump's campaign and his supporters is parroting their propaganda. >Meanwhile the biggest "fake news" item of the past few years was Russiagate, which escaped your list along with widespread condemnation from e…

It's not clear to me how you are identifying "public" anxiety, as opposed to the anxiety of Washington. We can observe the latter in the behavior of Congress, e.g. The former is unclear.

In any case, let's go with "anxiety". Why is there sudden anxiety? Why should we worry about Pizzagate now while we didn't worry about similar things two years ago?

The answer is simple: Trump was elected. He is not alone; there is a widespread revolt of rightwing "populists" in progress worldwide. Marine fucking LePen just beat Macron in an election.

The people who support Hilary Clinton and Macron (i.e., "liberal globalist elites" to use your term) are materially harmed by this trend. They are desperate to understand how they can reverse it; but they refuse to consider that their ideology is simply unpopular. Instead, the problem must be "fake news".

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#116
post #72
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a stopped clock is right twice a day. So all the stopped clock merchant has to do is wait for the clock to line up, then shout from the rooftops that they have the right time. It's not enough to be correct by coincidence, process matters. We see this often enough in scientific papers where the statistics come into question. News process is different, especially given how sources work. Not everyone is willing to b…

Clocks are a great analogy. As pointed out, the problem is in verification. Say everyone has a clock and they're all showing different time. How do you actually get to the ground truth? Observe and measure planetary motion? That's too much hassle. This is where the analogy cracks a bit (or does it?). What you want is for your clock to show the same time as others' clocks do, so you join a group where you synchronize…

> Clocks are a great analogy.

Indeed they are, and in no small measure because everyone is convinced that they know what clocks do and nearly everyone is wrong. Everyone thinks that clocks measure time. They don't. They measure the space-time interval between events, but when you try to explain that to people their eyes glaze over and they start mentally fitting you for a nice padded cell. But this actually matters if, for example, you want to understand the details of how GPS works.

Fake news is the same way. Most of the time it really doesn't matter, e.g. the person working the register at the grocery store can believe that aliens have kidnapped their pet hamster and it won't impact their ability to ring up your order. So most people go through life believing crazy things it never matters, until when it finally does their thought processes are so deeply entrenched that the actual truth sounds completely insane to them (c.f. "clocks don't measure time.")

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#117
post #7

> Captioning his find, Burrows said that the fantasy writer had “accurately predicted how the internet would propagate and legitimise fake news” It's like when you have one clock, you know what time it is. When you have two clocks they're always somewhat different, and so you're no longer certain of the time, and have less faith in clocks. Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along wi…

I am grateful to the internet for exposing how deeply our social consensus was dependent on a particular culture and ruling class owning the means of disseminating information, ie newspapers and tv channels. With the means to distribute ideas more openly available there has come both a broader range of views across the population and a noticeable weakening of the ruling class’s ability to direct public attention and…

That's a great way of putting it, thanks for that non-ruling class view.

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#118
post #31
post #7

> Captioning his find, Burrows said that the fantasy writer had “accurately predicted how the internet would propagate and legitimise fake news” It's like when you have one clock, you know what time it is. When you have two clocks they're always somewhat different, and so you're no longer certain of the time, and have less faith in clocks. Fake news has always been with us and the internet just propagates it along wi…

Building on that analogy, the trouble with one clock is you only know what time it is if it's correct . If you take the time to verify and/or set it against an accurate time source, then this is no problem. However, it seems more and more people are skipping that verification step, and just assuming the clock is right. When presented with two conflicting clocks, instead of questioning what's going on and trying to fi…

But are any clocks correct? What is the correct time?

Are you sure the correct time isn't just someone declaring their clock is the correct time and everyone else's clock is relative to theirs?

At what point does this metaphor wear too thin?

Re: Terry Pratchett warns Bill Gates about fake news (1995)

#120
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The narrative you're expressing, that the mainstream media as a complex exists to further propaganda on the part of the "elites" and that only the web has been able to provide an honest and unbiased form of news is undermining the actual subject at hand, which is the degree to which the web and those unwashed masses are being employed as tools for propaganda by the same elites. The implicit (and arguable unjustified)…

But is it equally unjustified? I trust alternative media because they show me the primary sources they rely upon. Mainstream media basically never does this; gatekeeping access to knowledge is, for whatever reason, a key part of how they operate, noticeably imposed upon all their writers. The following things are, as far as I've witnessed, universally true of every mainstream media source out there: * If they report…

I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue here. Your bullet points are equally applicable to "alternative" media outlets and "mainstream" media do often link out to government reports, sources, etc in their articles.
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