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The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

citylab.com

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Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#41

Post by reaperducer »

rayiner wrote: post #35
reaperducer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are overhead elevated train tracks, and they work just fine No, they don't. They add a massive amount of noise and other pollution to the city, and block light and air, turning normal city streets into seedy alleys. (Ex: Wabash before the recent renovation) They seem a lot cheaper to build and maintain than tunnels Build, probably. Maintain, no. The elevated structures require a ton of maintenance that is ongoi…

These are electric trains—what pollution? Noise isn’t much higher once you’re even a block away. And light and air is a matter of setbacks. Lake and Wells are hardly seedy alleys. There is more light standing right under an L track than in NYC.

These are electric trains—what pollution

I suspect you've never been in a subway tunnel and noticed all the grime and dirt spewed all over the walls and ceiling by electric trains.

Noise isn’t much higher once you’re even a block away

Now I know you've never been in a city with an elevated train system. I once lived nine blocks away from an elevated train, and I could hear it all day and all night.

And light and air is a matter of setbacks

You can't set back a building that's already built, and you can't take away air rights from a property owner without massive compensation.

There is more light standing right under an L track than in NYC

More is not the same as optimal. Why should any of the public's light and air be removed if it's not necessary?

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#42

Post by reaperducer »

fabioborellini wrote: post #27

Maybe Elon should visit Europe or Asia and check out an underground mass rapid transit system or two. They have two orders of magnitude larger capacity. And even their capacity is finite. And keep in mind that the NYC Subway and the London Underground are NOT a good example of a modern mass transit system.

Mr. Musk isn't trying to do it better, he's trying to do it cheaper.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#43

Post by bluGill »

duxup wrote: post #16
stcredzero wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minneapolis did the right thing with its light rail: Going from the Airport, to downtown, to the Mall of America. When I was consulting in Minneapolis, getting from the Airport to the apartment I'd rented downtown was just a typical jaunt on public transit. Here's how to win with public transit: Build it where people want to go. Amazing how difficult that is.

Yeah the first few lines are pretty obvious if you are smart about it. Twins ballpark / transit hub (not there at time of construction but it helps that it is now), downtown, Vikings Stadium, Airport, MOA... pretty obvious and useful route. Then to the U and St. Paul. After that is is a question of what direction out to the burbs you reach out to, and then the next, and so on.

If it isn't obvious the question shouldn't be asked. Just put in a Bus rapid transit system, and change the line every few months until you find a "line" that is profitable, then keep that line going for a few years to prove it works long term. Now you have real rider numbers to plug into the equation of if the line is worth it.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#44

Post by crocal »

If they can do this for 49MUSD then it’s a revolution. It’s a ridiculous amount of money for something like this. Just the management overhead of a project like this would cost millions, and the fact that it is short does not make it any easier. I will be very curious to see how they pull it off, and take the lesson whatever the outcome is.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#45

Post by duxup »

bluGill wrote: post #43
duxup wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the first few lines are pretty obvious if you are smart about it. Twins ballpark / transit hub (not there at time of construction but it helps that it is now), downtown, Vikings Stadium, Airport, MOA... pretty obvious and useful route. Then to the U and St. Paul. After that is is a question of what direction out to the burbs you reach out to, and then the next, and so on.

If it isn't obvious the question shouldn't be asked. Just put in a Bus rapid transit system, and change the line every few months until you find a "line" that is profitable, then keep that line going for a few years to prove it works long term. Now you have real rider numbers to plug into the equation of if the line is worth it.

I'm not sure rider number experiments are really needed. At least in MN rider predictions were on the conservative side, but reasonable as far as predictors.

Granted that doesn't mean your idea is bad or anything. I do wonder how many people would change their routine for a "temporary" bus line... not sure they would.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#46

Post by rayiner »

hoorayimhelping wrote: post #23
rayiner wrote: post #6

So what’s this fascination with tunnels? In Chicago, there are overhead elevated train tracks, and they work just fine. They seem a lot cheaper to build and maintain than tunnels. You can even build them over existing avenues. Why don’t we have more of that?

Have you ever lived near an elevated train? They're not pleasant areas, especially compared to subway stations. The area under the tracks aren't very usable, except as a roadway and parking lots. They're loud as hell, people on the trains can see into your home, the spaces around the elevated tracks are great places for people to do drugs and have crusty hobo sex. These criticisms apply equally to elevated roads. Mos…

The area under elevated lines is unusable only if you make it that way. Tokyo is great at using space below bridges and elevated lines: https://images.app.goo.gl/zpq5T3m5FPSr4eoN6.

As to weather, Chicago has tons of it and manages fine: https://chicago.curbed.com/2019/1/31/18204627/chicago-cold-w...

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#47

Post by brlewis »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #33
breck wrote: post #2

Yes, it is. With one that caveat that if it's built 10x cheaper than comparable tunnels, it is. Moving our roads underground is a vastly superior transportation system than we have today. It can be safer, better for the air, better for light and noise pollution, unlock vast amounts of land in our urban areas for parks, etc. I grew up near Boston during the big dig and the city is a drastically different place before…

>I grew up near Boston during the big dig and the city is a drastically different place before and after the Central Artery. What did the Big Dig do that a better central artery with more decks wouldn't? The whole "highways are ugly" argument really is mostly from/for upscale people who don't want their view ruined. Very few people who actually has to use or live/work near the infrastructure really cares all that muc…

Hi. I work near the infrastructure and I care about its presence or lack thereof. Fortunately the oppressively loud, reverberating steel structure is no longer a fact of life. When I walk through that area I am literally no longer in its shadow. https://ourdoings.com/brlewis/2008-05-14

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#48

Post by rayiner »

reaperducer wrote: post #41
rayiner wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are electric trains—what pollution? Noise isn’t much higher once you’re even a block away. And light and air is a matter of setbacks. Lake and Wells are hardly seedy alleys. There is more light standing right under an L track than in NYC.

These are electric trains—what pollution I suspect you've never been in a subway tunnel and noticed all the grime and dirt spewed all over the walls and ceiling by electric trains. Noise isn’t much higher once you’re even a block away Now I know you've never been in a city with an elevated train system. I once lived nine blocks away from an elevated train, and I could hear it all day and all night. And light and air…

I lived in Chicago for four years. I’ve walked under the L hundreds of times. It’s fine.

And it is necessary. The alternative to a cheaper above-ground line isn’t a subway. Usually, it’s no rail at all.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#49

Post by CobrastanJorji »

perennate wrote: post #21
duxup wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Big Dig strikes me as what could be as much a reason not to do that thing.

Why do you say that? Even accounting for the cost, I think many would still argue that it was worth it, replacing a highway system that divided the city with a walkable network of parks that effectively connects different neighborhoods like financial district north end, along with a new series of (underground) highways that provided improved traffic flow. Before and after photos: https://imgur.com/JbgPur6 If the cost…

Oh my God, it actually became parks?! I lived there back in 2007 or so and had no faith whatsoever that the promises that the artery would be replaced with parkland once it was finished. My apologies to the government of Boston.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#50

Post by michaelleslie »

ryantgtg wrote: post #39
pdq wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Boring Tunnel is all hype so far. The demo tunnel doesn't look to have sufficient ventilation or emergency exits in case of fire, car crash, etc. They haven't addressed the ingress and egress congestion problems into and out of the tunnel. How can a single elevator go up/down to handle 1000+ cars per hour (4400 passengers per hour)? Basic math gives you 3.6 seconds for the elevator to go down, wait for the car t…

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, there isn't a offramp/onramp in the latest design scheme. When Boring Company first unveiled the design, it had elevators that moved vehicles from grade-level to the tunnel. The vehicles then locked into a track. Then after reaching an "exit" the vehicle is brought back to the surface so the driver can continue the journey within that same vehicle. But they recently scrapped all that.…

Sounds like a less-scalable metro system, a technology that predates this "innovation" by a century or so.
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