Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database • Hacker News Board

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#201

Post by laumars » Wed, May 29, 2019, 12:59 PM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #173

laumars wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to interfering, however where we differ is I think not having a support system at all is more negligent. I should also reiterate my earlier caveat that I don't agree in profiling people at a mass level like the article suggests is happening. I'd be interested to read…

"Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into." I don't understand the distinction you are making. People with mental illness make choices, are lead into things, etc. People who are expelled from school or incarcerated don't want to be in that situation but they are anyway. That seems like mental illness to me - counterproductive behavio…

> I don't understand the distinction you are making. People with mental illness make choices, are lead into things, etc.

> People who are expelled from school or incarcerated don't want to be in that situation but they are anyway. That seems like mental illness to me - counterproductive behavior that can't be willed to stop.

Fair point. I probably shouldn't have made that distinction.

> The tragic fact I'm trying to communicate about attempts to help people is that the first step is to get someone who is vulnerable to trust authorities. And then that trust is necessarily betrayed, because the whole point is to try to help people without their consent. Not being able to trust is a primary cause or contributing factor to being unable to function properly in society.

In many of the more extreme cases that is true. However it doesn't always work out that way. Realistically this is a far to broad a topic to be generalising the way we have but it's still been a read regardless.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#202

Post by bregma » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

__HYde wrote: post #153

sgift wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you have to gain from interacting with the police? Now, compare this to what you stand to lose by interacting with the police. The job of the police is to help me. To do that effectively they have to sometimes talk to me. It is therefore in my interest to talk to them.

The job of the police is to enforce laws. Whether this helps you is ancillary.

The job of police is to police (it's kind of in the name). Enforcing laws is only a small part of policing. It's unfortunate that many people, including both police and politicians, seem to forget or maybe don't understand that.

Policing means arbitrating in a dispute even when no laws have been broken, helping those in our community incapable of helping themselves (accident victims, people whose meds are off). It doesn't really mean the regular use of violent force or even the threat of an immediate death penalty to gain compliance with a personally conveyed order. Tht's not justice and it's arguably not even law enforcement.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#203

Post by homonculus1 » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:06 PM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #200

barry-cotter wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most of the world the police could beat you to death with video evidence and they’d get away with it. Competent, professional more or less upright police are not the worldwide or historical norm. In most of the world the police are the biggest gang. Police in the US are the very model of probity, courtesy and professionalism compared to almost every country in the Western Hemisphere, never mind African, Arab or As…

> Police in the US are the very model of probity, courtesy and professionalism compared to almost every country in the Western Hemisphere You specified western Hemisphere , which includes only the eastmost edge of Europe, but still leaves (half) of the UK, France and also Canada and Ireland. US police is hardly going to beat those on many positive metrics. Odd choice of geographic region for such a comparison in any…

"Worse than these four" can still be "better than most". There is nothing you said that contradicts GP.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#204

Post by cabaalis » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:08 PM UTC

emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

I recommend everyone watch this video. It's geared towards lawyers. If the police are asking questions with any level of suspicion at all, don't talk to them. Even if you do not lie, and are innocent, the things you say can still be used against you.

Summarizing:

1. There is no way it can help.

2. If your client is guilty (or even innocent), they might admit guilt with nothing in return.

3. If your client is innocent, they can still make some small mistake or tiny mistruth that can be used to convict by seeding doubt.

4. If your client is innocent, and does not make any small mistake or tiny mistruth, what is said can still be used in court to convict.

5. If your client is innocent, and tells the police absolutely nothing incriminating at all, the police can still mis-remember the conversation and result in a conviction.

6. If your client is innocent, and tells the police absolutely nothing incriminating at all, and the clients statements are videotaped so it cannot be mischaracterized, the police can still augment the conversation from their personal knowledge and result in a conviction.

There's more, it goes on and on and on. Don't talk to police if you are being questioned about something, whether you did it or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#205

Post by mcv » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #190

mcv wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Americans don't want to live in a police state, then they should demand that the behaviour of their police changes. That police officers are held accountable, and are better trained to perform their job in the interest of the people, rather than merely their own interest or that of the government. If you have control over your police, then please exercise it. I think the problem that's holding Americans back, also…

> I'm just going by what Americans themselves are telling me about their country Ah, this makes sense then :) Definitely visit the US...I can tell you that the Americans who travel tend to lean heavily "liberal" in their politics (in other words, anti-police), which would explain that your perception of American life is definitely skewed in favor of this view. Note that yes, of course, we do have major problems with…

> Definitely visit the US.

I would love to, as soon as the situation in the US has become a bit more sane and less xenophobic. Again, too many stories of even US residents getting denied access or getting held for hours trying to enter the country legally.

However, I get my view about the US mostly from the internet. From discussions like these, from new stories, from even law enforcement experts telling people not to talk to the police.

I know different people have different views on the police, but on the whole, putting all those different perspectives together, the total picture doesn't look great. It's probably totally fine for a middle class white person from a decent neighbourhood, but the fact that it's good for some demographics but bad for other groups, that honestly doesn't make the big picture any better, even if I happen to fit in the demographic that's probably the safest.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#206

Post by bregma » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

jammygit wrote: post #53

acchow wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police are not your friends As a Canadian, I disagree with this sentiment.

As a Canadian, I think the police are pretty neutral. They aren’t your friends or enemies. I once received death threats that they did not help me with until after I got attacked at work. They neither prey upon you nor help you.

This. We decided collectively it's a good idea to have police. If you find yourself in a situation involving police, things have already gone wrong and it's generally not their fault.

There are unfortunately situations in which "already gone wrong" may include your genetics at conception. As a society we acknowledge that is not a valid criteria for police intervention, but we're still working on some of the implementation details.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#207

Post by chmod775 » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

homonculus1 wrote: post #203

chmod775 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police in the US are the very model of probity, courtesy and professionalism compared to almost every country in the Western Hemisphere You specified western Hemisphere , which includes only the eastmost edge of Europe, but still leaves (half) of the UK, France and also Canada and Ireland. US police is hardly going to beat those on many positive metrics. Odd choice of geographic region for such a comparison in any…

"Worse than these four" can still be "better than most". There is nothing you said that contradicts GP.

I was strongly hinting that he probably meant western countries or maybe just developed countries, not western hemisphere.

The latter is like competing with your college football team against a selection of mostly primary schoolers and declaring you're doing fine.

That's just not an aspirational goal or useful comparison.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#208

Post by 781 » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

cabaalis wrote: post #204

emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

I recommend everyone watch this video. It's geared towards lawyers. If the police are asking questions with any level of suspicion at all, don't talk to them. Even if you do not lie, and are innocent, the things you say can still be used against you. Summarizing: 1. There is no way it can help. 2. If your client is guilty (or even innocent), they might admit guilt with nothing in return. 3. If your client is innocent…

That video is very US centric.

In Europe in particular, police officers are not such an enemy.

Also, in UK, refusing to talk to police at first contact can be used against you, for example it will be more difficult later to introduce exculpatory evidence that you were supposed to know of at the time you refused to speak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence_in_England_an...

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#209

Post by doctorRetro » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #18

taneq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

This post and the article have the same problem: Thinking the way police works/seems to work in the US (always out to get you) is universal to the world while it is the exception. Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

> ...the way police works/seems to work in the US ... is the exception.

Nope. I can't agree with this, as much as I wish I could. It's an easy fallacy to think the U.S. is the exception when it comes to power mad, duplicitous and hostile bullies in the police force since they're the ones getting the bulk of the media coverage. We have them in Canada, too. Yes, they're fewer in numbers, but that's not to say we don't have them. It's easy to assume other countries or cultures are innocent of a problem just because they have a lower, or perhaps invisible, prevalence of that problem.

Source: I'm a Canadian (who used to think exactly this way) with family members in the emergency services, including one estranged, asshole bully of a cop who'd happily harass someone and construct a charge if they looked at him the wrong way.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#210

Post by tempguy9999 » Wed, May 29, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

laumars wrote: post #188

tempguy9999 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am being antagonistic because I have the suspicion I'm being antagonised, though out of an abundance of (misplaced) goodwill. > suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness DanBC replied succinctly. I can't add to it. I'm getting badly uptight because ISTM you may have defined suicide into something you are morally required to intervene in, and prevent. From your orig post: "...given support to help en…

> I'm getting badly uptight because ISTM you may have defined suicide into something you are morally required to intervene in, and prevent. From your orig post: "...given support to help enable them to grow into better people..." You're obsessing over one sentence, pulling it apart and taking it completely out of context - even after I have already clarified what I meant. I have repeatedly made the case that support…

I'm "pulling [that sentence] apart" because it's the very pivot point of the issue. The core, the crux, the interpretation of which is purely subjective, so where things can go bad.

I actually agreed with some of your posts and upvoted 2 of them (edit: including the original one I replied to initially!) When I was concerned about was the fine balance between helping and suddenly forcing 'for their own good', hence in my original post I said "That's ripe for abuse". I was not initially criticising you, just saying it's frightningly abusable; be cautious.

Then you posted this "That's [suicide is] a mental illness". Now it seemed you opened the door to 'helping' whether they liked it or not. Maybe you didn't but that's how I read it, and it did not play well with me. I don't think you got how badly that scared me. Well, that's ok.

On the whole I agree with you. /Pace/