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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#161

Post by barry-cotter »

sgift wrote: post #18
taneq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

This post and the article have the same problem: Thinking the way police works/seems to work in the US (always out to get you) is universal to the world while it is the exception. Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

In most of the world the police could beat you to death with video evidence and they’d get away with it. Competent, professional more or less upright police are not the worldwide or historical norm. In most of the world the police are the biggest gang. Police in the US are the very model of probity, courtesy and professionalism compared to almost every country in the Western Hemisphere, never mind African, Arab or Asian police.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#162

Post by StanislavPetrov »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #9

Sincere question: why is that not benevolent?

Because the state is never benevolent. The state maintains a monopoly on violence to impose order on society - not because they are benevolent.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#163

Post by hedgedoops2 »

The problem is that police are being involved in the job of social workers. I guess it would be an acceptable and useful system if:

- Police had write-only access to the database.

- Police had no involvement in interventions.

- Anyone was able to fill out a form and get their data purged.

- Everyone in the database could easily discover it.

Basically, separate law enforcement and social work. And enforce strict data souvereignity.

The next problem is that it blurs the line between 'client' and 'suspect'.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#165

Post by Intermernet »

laumars wrote: post #118
perl4ever wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sort of logic that is used everywhere, whether by police or social services, but it doesn't work in practice the way it does in theory. Providing help to people before there is a crisis sounds so nice and helpful, but due to the inherent drastic negative consequences of entering into the system, it ends up merely moving the punishment for not fitting in forward of the crisis. Thus, trying to be pro-active…

I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to interfering, however where we differ is I think not having a support system at all is more negligent. I should also reiterate my earlier caveat that I don't agree in profiling people at a mass level like the article suggests is happening. I'd be interested to read…

>Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into.

Is it always a mental illness? I have to say that I hate the circumstances that lead people to suicide, and I don't think that I'd ever follow that course, but don't the reasons for suicide range from mental illness (eg depression) all the way to self determination (eg suffering from a terminal disease)?

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#166

Post by tempguy9999 »

laumars wrote: post #138
tempguy9999 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. What are you saying, and what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? Please think very carefully before answering. Edit: have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide?

> What are you saying Literally all I'm saying is suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. > what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? I don't really want to get into an off topic discussion about mental health which is why I didn't go into more detail in my previous post. However if you want more information about mental health the…

I am being antagonistic because I have the suspicion I'm being antagonised, though out of an abundance of (misplaced) goodwill.

> suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness

DanBC replied succinctly. I can't add to it.

I'm getting badly uptight because ISTM you may have defined suicide into something you are morally required to intervene in, and prevent. From your orig post: "...given support to help enable them to grow into better people..."

I'm afraid of people who may try to help me and make things worse. See my post about how helpful were towards gays not too long ago.

Suicide has been attractive to me and is becoming attractive again. I DO NOT WANT any fucker trying to affect my choices 'for the better'. I'm afraid that may be you. I'm afraid you may have fallen exactly into the trap of defining 'better' outcomes in a way that disrespects the choices of others.

From my fear, and partly my perceived presumption on your part but mostly from fear, comes anger borne not of aggression but defensiveness, hence the tone of my reply. In short, you scared me.

I'm not mentally well right now (perhaps you'd care to look back over some of my prior posts) and I misjudge things, so please understand I'm struggling with what I may have mis-perceived in your words. You may not be saying at all what I read.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#167

Post by dsfyu404ed »

> a collaborative approach to policing called the Hub model that partners cops, school staff, social workers, health care workers, and the provincial government.

So this is like the social work version of combined arms? Use all your resources in coordination to quash any potential threat.

"Little Jimmy gave his teacher the bird, his parents told the social workers to fuck off and they've got a Gadsden flag hung in the window of their trailer, better send the cops to harass them so they learn that we don't tolerate people who don't take our authority seriously"

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#168

Post by dsfyu404ed »

hedgedoops2 wrote: post #163

The problem is that police are being involved in the job of social workers. I guess it would be an acceptable and useful system if: - Police had write-only access to the database. - Police had no involvement in interventions. - Anyone was able to fill out a form and get their data purged. - Everyone in the database could easily discover it. Basically, separate law enforcement and social work. And enforce strict data…

>Basically, separate law enforcement and social work. And enforce strict data souvereignity.

This is how things used to be in decades past. The police did police things and social workers did social work things and there was no way in hell the police were reading the social workers notes without a warrant and even then there's a chance that would still be protected.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#169

Post by SiempreViernes »

EliRivers wrote: post #83

The principle here - that good community policing has a strong preventative, social aspect - is nothing new. It has long been expected that good community police officers know people in their area who might be at risk of going down a criminal path and use their judgement to intervene appropriately. So is the objection (of some) that this principle is wrong, or is the objection that this aspect of what is generally co…

Halfway down a person actually knowledgable about the system raises the legitimate concern that there are many non-consensual interventions, which is bad because they work way worse than the consensual ones.

A hypothesis could be that the predictions of an impressive sounding system means people are less concerned about getting consent.

This hypothesis is completely absent from the text, and instead it is just the textual equivalent of a video with menacing music aling pictures of the text "Government" and clips of police brutality.

Honestly I wonder if the author of the piece even accept that the government keeps a record of who has citizenship.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#170

Post by NeedMoreTea »

mattlondon wrote: post #76
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

On the other hand I can't imagine not doing. 99% of the time it's a friend or neighbour, or the odd unexpected parcel.

Someone selling is remarkably rare, JW show up trying to sell religion every couple of years - we try and scare them off claiming devout satanism or spaghetti based religion. :)

That's about it. Maybe police if some had an accident, or something in the local area happened.

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