What is the role of meat in a healthy diet? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#71

Post by vfc1 » Tue, May 28, 2019, 3:02 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #67

vfc1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be from a magazine sponsored by the meat industry, so it could be why it was taken down - https://academic.oup.com/af/pages/About

I'd rather see their points addressed than just flagged because they're from the "wrong" industry.

Yes I agree, concerning that I have been following this debate for a couple of years now. And you just don't find independent studies that claim that meat is healthy.

The WHO and similar organizations are extremely conservative, so if they adopted this stance concerning meat its because there was some solid science to back it up.

I mean, they knew how people would react, and probably delayed this recommendation for a long time.

Every credible study that I see coming out, they all point in the same direction.

Check Dr Fhurman books, he is not vegan and even gives non-vegan recipes in his books. He is looking for the best human diet from a point of view of longevity and health, without ethical claims.

Here is his current food pyramid, he recommends less than 10% of calories from animal products https://www.drfuhrman.com/get-started/eat-to-live-blog/90/dr...

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#72

Post by thomascgalvin » Tue, May 28, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

modzu wrote: post #30

thomascgalvin wrote: post #6

The short answer is that we don't know. Refreshingly enough, this article seems to focus on that fact. There are studies that say eating meat will give you cancer, or just kill you younger in general, but there are studies that show the opposite, and studies that show no correlation. And pretty much all of these studies have issues, the biggest usually being, as the article says, that they're observational, based on…

such epistemic issues apply to all domains of knowledge. also, anecdotal evidence, ie, "what worked for them", is still valid data, and should be valued as such

> anecdotal evidence, ie, "what worked for them", is still valid data, and should be valued as such

It's useful information, but it's also limited information. If Atkins worked for your buddy two cubes down, that might indicate that it's worth trying yourself, but it's less useful in terms of making, say, national level nutritional policy. Though I suppose in this case I'm more worried about lobbying than anecdotal data.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#73

Post by malvosenior » Tue, May 28, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #71

malvosenior wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather see their points addressed than just flagged because they're from the "wrong" industry.

Yes I agree, concerning that I have been following this debate for a couple of years now. And you just don't find independent studies that claim that meat is healthy. The WHO and similar organizations are extremely conservative, so if they adopted this stance concerning meat its because there was some solid science to back it up. I mean, they knew how people would react, and probably delayed this recommendation for a…

Just as I don't want to dismiss the OP because of the industry they are in, I also don't want to blankly believe the WHO. We should be free to discuss this and come to our own opinions and having this article flagged goes against that.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#74

Post by thomascgalvin » Tue, May 28, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #33

thomascgalvin wrote: post #6

The short answer is that we don't know. Refreshingly enough, this article seems to focus on that fact. There are studies that say eating meat will give you cancer, or just kill you younger in general, but there are studies that show the opposite, and studies that show no correlation. And pretty much all of these studies have issues, the biggest usually being, as the article says, that they're observational, based on…

We do know, all the evidence points in the direction that the western diet, high in animal products and processed foods is the number explanation for the rampant increase of cancer, diabetes and heart disease in the west. This argument is old: we don't know because the perfect experiment has not been conducted and never will and because the studies that we have don't say what we want to hear. If the news is bad, ques…

> We do know, all the evidence points in the direction that the western diet, high in animal products and processed foods is the number explanation for the rampant increase of cancer, diabetes and heart disease in the west.

Here's the thing: we don't know that, at least not with the kind of certainty you're claiming. In particular, "high in animal products" and "processed foods" are totally divorced from one another, and can't be lumped into the same causal bucket without a good reason for doing so.

Are the animal products in our diet causing diabetes, or is it the prevalence of high fructose corn syrup, or is it something else entirely? I have my own suspicions, and plenty of people more qualified than me have their suspicions, but they're still just suspicions, not proven facts.

Same thing with heart disease. Red meat was blamed for coronary troubles for years, but there are plenty of people on paleo diets that seem to improve all of the important markers for heart disease. There are also plenty of people on vegan diets that seem to improve all of the important markers for heart disease.

I think we can say, without any controversy, that eating more vegetables is better for us, and that eating foods that come in cans or boxes is worse than eating food that comes farm-to-table. But aside from those two broad categories, I don't think we can make sweeping claims about what foods are "good" or "bad" for us, simply because there is no consistent, conclusive research to prove it.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#75

Post by smarkov » Tue, May 28, 2019, 3:24 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #63

smarkov wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article you linked: > Eating more red meat under the Paleo diet paired with a lack of whole grains results in higher levels of a biomarker linked to heart disease WITH A LACK OF WHOLE GRAINS. Does that mean that red meat is the cause or that the lack of a balanced diet is the cause? > The places in the world that have the best health are the ones that eat fewer animal products. Where's the evidence for that…

It just means that the population cancer rates in general just keep rising, and adopters of the paleo diet which is promoted as a meat-based health diet have even higher levels of certain cancer biomarkers. The current science says that processed meat is a known carcinogen, and red meat a likely carcinogen. This The places with the highest lifespan have all low animal product diets and are known as the blue zones - h…

What if the adopters of the paleo diet have turned to it because they are already suffering from a disease and it's the most popular healthy option?

While the animal products consumption per person has increased in the US, so have other factors such as stress, depression, loneliness, alcohol consumption and a sedentary lifestyle which all contribute to diseases. And if you pay close attention, the reduction of all these factors is what countries in the "blue zone" all have in common.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#76

Post by HNestUnCulte » Tue, May 28, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #63

smarkov wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article you linked: > Eating more red meat under the Paleo diet paired with a lack of whole grains results in higher levels of a biomarker linked to heart disease WITH A LACK OF WHOLE GRAINS. Does that mean that red meat is the cause or that the lack of a balanced diet is the cause? > The places in the world that have the best health are the ones that eat fewer animal products. Where's the evidence for that…

It just means that the population cancer rates in general just keep rising, and adopters of the paleo diet which is promoted as a meat-based health diet have even higher levels of certain cancer biomarkers. The current science says that processed meat is a known carcinogen, and red meat a likely carcinogen. This The places with the highest lifespan have all low animal product diets and are known as the blue zones - h…

> Did you see the source of the article? It's a journal sponsored by the meat industry - https://academic.oup.com/af/pages/About

You keep repeating this all over this thread, but this is an academic journal specializing on animal agriculture (it says the same thing in the link). Besides, the OP should be discussed on its own.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#77

Post by HNestUnCulte » Tue, May 28, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #62

sridca wrote: post #41

Yet another dietary article not in favour of veganism/vegetarianism got flagged. Well done Hacker News.

Indeed, why would this be flagged? There's plenty of vegan stuff on this site and it's never flagged. The same argument always comes up too: "red meat causes cancer!". Now we have an article exploring that point and it's flagged so we can't discuss it. Lame.

> Indeed, why would this be flagged?

It has been un-flagged now, though it is no longer on the front page. Isn't it interesting how the community does its "soft censorship"? I've said this before, but the Hacker News community is increasingly biased towards vegan/ vegetarian movements, so much that they will do anything to suppress discussion of anything positive about meat.

You can continue the discussion of this article here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ScientificNutrition/comments/btzkzg...

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#78

Post by AstralStorm » Tue, May 28, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

scandinavegan wrote: post #47

vaskebjorn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With eggs you are probably getting plenty of protein. I have been mostly vegan for a while and I don't think my bike riding has been affected, but I can tell you it definitely affected me when it came to weight lifting. For the first time in my life I just wasn't improving at all from session to session (and this is in the early stages when you just start lifting again after time off when gains come easy). I know the…

I don't see how getting enough protein on a vegan diet would be a problem, especially when you mention plant-based protein powder. I think healthy calories may be an issue if you don't include nuts and seeds, but as long as you cover your energy needs from vegetable sources you get enough protein and enough of all essential amino acids. You didn't mention this, but protein combination is a myth, and only very few veg…

The real stinger for vegan diets, but also poor meat based ones is lack of certain known micronutrients. Mostly D, B12. Potentially also potassium, magnesium, molybdenum. Some investigational ones like boron as well.

This is because he of the food chain is deprived and in case of D and B12 these really are not available in plant sources only.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#79

Post by AstralStorm » Tue, May 28, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #44

theNJR wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also know as candy bars!

Better than the typical candy bar. More similar to a serving of dried fruit & nut trail mix.

Remember it is still a high calorie count snack. Pretty much due to nut fats.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#80

Post by purplezooey » Tue, May 28, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

It is likely that the association of red-meat consumption with colon cancer is explained either by an inability of epidemiology to detect such a small risk or by combinations of other factors..

Whoah.