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What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

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Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#31

Post by sridca »

thomascgalvin wrote: post #6

The short answer is that we don't know. Refreshingly enough, this article seems to focus on that fact. There are studies that say eating meat will give you cancer, or just kill you younger in general, but there are studies that show the opposite, and studies that show no correlation. And pretty much all of these studies have issues, the biggest usually being, as the article says, that they're observational, based on…

Exactly. Sadly however some people would still prefer to believe WHO's authority and take their meat-causes-cancer factoid to be a fact.

> Does a low-carb diet improve health outcomes? Or a vegan diet? We just don't know, and anyone that tells you they do know is either selling you something or, at best, telling you what worked for them.

Yup; and the same applies to anyone looking to refute a diet they do not like. For example, a vegan asserting that the carnivore diet is unhealthy and vice versa.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#32

Post by [deleted] »

simplemts wrote: post #12
sridca wrote: post #2

Podcast with the author (Dr. David Klurfeld) discussing this subject: https://peakhuman.libsyn.com/dr-david-klurfeld-on-meat-not-c... Interesting report of his experience with WHO: - He was on the World Health Organization working group to decide if meat causes cancer in 2015 with a bunch of vegetarians and vegans and says it was the most frustrating professional experience of his life - There were 22 scientists - ha…

I'd recommend the book "How to not Die". Here are some takeaways: "Which foods contain the most cholesterol? Eggs, fish, chicken, and red meat all earn the red light..." "As for saturated fat, desserts, dairy, and snack foods are all designated as red light, with eggs, chicken, fish, and red meat getting the yellow light. Most of the saturated fat in the American diet comes from cheese (8.5%), pizza (5.9%), grain-bas…

[deleted]

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#33

Post by vfc1 »

thomascgalvin wrote: post #6

The short answer is that we don't know. Refreshingly enough, this article seems to focus on that fact. There are studies that say eating meat will give you cancer, or just kill you younger in general, but there are studies that show the opposite, and studies that show no correlation. And pretty much all of these studies have issues, the biggest usually being, as the article says, that they're observational, based on…

We do know, all the evidence points in the direction that the western diet, high in animal products and processed foods is the number explanation for the rampant increase of cancer, diabetes and heart disease in the west.

This argument is old: we don't know because the perfect experiment has not been conducted and never will and because the studies that we have don't say what we want to hear.

If the news is bad, question the source and keep doing the same thing. This was what was done for decades with tobacco, for decades the validity of the argument that it causes cancer was questioned.

Here we are in 2019 and still 15% of adults smoke in the US. And still, the perfect experiment was never done and never will.

Take any population that is healthy, they move to the west and develop these illnesses. The places in the world that have the best health are the ones that eat fewer animal products.

The Inuit that eat only meat and fish have rampant arteriosclerosis.

People on the paleo diet have been found to have much higher levels of a biomarker linked to heart disease than people on a normal diet, for which cancer rates are increasing - https://www.sbs.com.au/news/study-links-paleo-diet-to-heart-...

When a whole country stopped eating animal products for a year (during WW one) their health as a population massively increased.

The list goes on and on, we have epidemiological studies, we have population studies, we know some of the mechanisms through which cancer is developed, we know that a plant-based diet reverses heart disease.

But we still prefer to keep saying that we just don't know, because we don't like the news.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#34

Post by haarts »

Japhy_Ryder wrote: post #10
rongenre wrote: post #3

I stopped eating meat 6 years ago. I miss it, but decided to try going veg-only + eggs/dairy and see how it impacted my life. If I found myself unable to keep up with my exercise routines (bicycling and sporadic weight work), I'd have stopped. But it really didn't affect things, and I find myself unable to justify the cruelty of meat production. One note: I did notice that it's tougher to control carb intake while ea…

> I find myself unable to justify the cruelty of meat production. First off, nice job quitting meat. However, > eggs/dairy Just wanted to point out the amount of cruelty going on with eggs/dairy production is also absolutely harrowing. I'd recommend researching that as well and giving it up.

The fact that you eat eggs/dairy doesn't invalidate the entire exercise. Cutting meat out of your diet reduces animal cruelty significantly. While going all the way is better from an animal cruelty perspective there are other factors to consider (going all vegan is hard).

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#35

Post by bilbo0s »

sridca wrote: post #2

Podcast with the author (Dr. David Klurfeld) discussing this subject: https://peakhuman.libsyn.com/dr-david-klurfeld-on-meat-not-c... Interesting report of his experience with WHO: - He was on the World Health Organization working group to decide if meat causes cancer in 2015 with a bunch of vegetarians and vegans and says it was the most frustrating professional experience of his life - There were 22 scientists - ha…

This is what was so frustrating to me about working in medical research.

>- They claimed they used 800 studies but they actually only used 18...

I hate this, it happens all the time. Basically, say, 20 studies, which each reference other studies. Group all the references, remove the duplicates, add 20, and BAM! 800 studies!

What's worse, if you take the time to read through the studies, related papers, and data, you'll find ridiculousness. Circles of "peer reviewers", who clearly either never read the papers they reviewed, or are not as good at advanced math as I am. (I choose to believe they never even read the papers, because I'm not the smartest guy in the world.)

Data that doesn't match conclusions.

Oftentimes you won't find a single replication of a given study.

And on and on and on.

It was hard out there for a pimp.

>- He thinks a number of the people made up their minds before they even arrived ..

I can guarantee you this happened. Having said that though, it's important to remember in situations like the ones the podcast describes, that people have their minds made up "for" and "against". Believe it or not, it's a lot like liberals and conservatives in that, they don't really care what the data says, they're going to do whatever ridiculous thing they want to do in any case. Which frustrated me to no end. I mean, in politics, OK, that's the way things work. Fine.

But in science? I was just like, man, what are you people doing?

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#36

Post by modzu »

ive not heard of the journal "animal frontiers" before, but they seem to be partially funded by something called "american meat science" which, according to wikipedia, "represents the scientific advancement of meat production, including animal welfare, slaughterhouse operations, meat biochemistry and microbiology, and food safety." i'm not sure if that equates to a conflict of interest (is this just a lobby group with "science" in the name?) maybe somebody more knowledgeable can chime in.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#37

Post by theNewMicrosoft »

simplemts wrote: post #12
sridca wrote: post #2

Podcast with the author (Dr. David Klurfeld) discussing this subject: https://peakhuman.libsyn.com/dr-david-klurfeld-on-meat-not-c... Interesting report of his experience with WHO: - He was on the World Health Organization working group to decide if meat causes cancer in 2015 with a bunch of vegetarians and vegans and says it was the most frustrating professional experience of his life - There were 22 scientists - ha…

I'd recommend the book "How to not Die". Here are some takeaways: "Which foods contain the most cholesterol? Eggs, fish, chicken, and red meat all earn the red light..." "As for saturated fat, desserts, dairy, and snack foods are all designated as red light, with eggs, chicken, fish, and red meat getting the yellow light. Most of the saturated fat in the American diet comes from cheese (8.5%), pizza (5.9%), grain-bas…

>I'd recommend the book "How to not Die".

I'm sorry but Michael Greger, M.D., author of the said book, is a nutrition quack.

https://twitter.com/nutrition_facts/status/10472600785528995...

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#38

Post by simonask »

dbingham wrote: post #28
rongenre wrote: post #3

I stopped eating meat 6 years ago. I miss it, but decided to try going veg-only + eggs/dairy and see how it impacted my life. If I found myself unable to keep up with my exercise routines (bicycling and sporadic weight work), I'd have stopped. But it really didn't affect things, and I find myself unable to justify the cruelty of meat production. One note: I did notice that it's tougher to control carb intake while ea…

The problem with the ethical argument - that meat production is cruel and vegetable production is not - is that it makes all kinds of assumptions about plant anatomy and behavior that may be wrong. In fact, the growing field of plant behavior strongly suggests that those assumptions are wrong. That plants aren't unthinking, unfeeling at all, but every bit as alive and aware of their environment as animals. It's a rea…

Most vegetarians have no trouble swatting a fly or a mosquito, though.

The studies of plant "neurology" (if you can call it that) are all very interesting, but the argument that anything that has a nervous system is holy and untouchable is decidedly fringe.

To compare the awareness of a tree with the awareness of a cow or a pig or even a chicken is clearly asinine.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#39

Post by mkohlmyr »

simplemts wrote: post #12
sridca wrote: post #2

Podcast with the author (Dr. David Klurfeld) discussing this subject: https://peakhuman.libsyn.com/dr-david-klurfeld-on-meat-not-c... Interesting report of his experience with WHO: - He was on the World Health Organization working group to decide if meat causes cancer in 2015 with a bunch of vegetarians and vegans and says it was the most frustrating professional experience of his life - There were 22 scientists - ha…

I'd recommend the book "How to not Die". Here are some takeaways: "Which foods contain the most cholesterol? Eggs, fish, chicken, and red meat all earn the red light..." "As for saturated fat, desserts, dairy, and snack foods are all designated as red light, with eggs, chicken, fish, and red meat getting the yellow light. Most of the saturated fat in the American diet comes from cheese (8.5%), pizza (5.9%), grain-bas…

I am no expert but just on the face of it I would take any book that thinks eggs and fish are bad for you (other than in obscene quantities) with more than a few grains of salt.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#40

Post by simonask »

hirundo wrote: post #5

> I find myself unable to justify the cruelty of meat production. Would you eat meat from an outfit that convinced you it was raised without cruelty, right up to a pain and panic free slaughter? For say, a 20% premium?

Most people who have the means to do so probably would.

However, the killing in itself is very difficult to defend at all, in my opinion.

You very quickly run into some sketchy philosophical dead-ends, such as for example the notion that human life fundamentally has some kind of divine right to make decisions of life and death over lesser lifeforms.

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