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Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

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Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#151

Post by Benjo »

ErrantX wrote: post #80
chc wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's copyright infringement, that's what it is. If it were stealing, you wouldn't be able to get million-dollar verdicts against the people who do it.

Ok, but I think the point being made is that the artists (ignore the record companies, they're idiots) feel as if they are being stolen from. Not just in monetary cost. So; ethical theft?

I don't believe intellectual property is a matter of ethics any more than arguing whether it is right or wrong to drive down the left side of the street.

The basis for IP law is to encourage the production of creative works. The moral imperative is to allow science and art to improve people's lives. IP law should be a practical set of rules to create a free market for these works.

Does the current system do this? Not very well. Neither does infringement in most cases.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#152

Post by stoney »

jessriedel wrote: post #86
xenophanes wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fixed seats on train is only relevant if it fills up. So just imagine the case where it doesn't totally fill and consider his point again and you should see the parallel.

There are parallels, but surely there's a large, morally important difference between sneaking onto a half empty train with $50 seats, and stealing $50 from someone's wallet.

Is there such a large, morally important difference?

I am going to simplify a lot here, but let's say that the train operator has a fixed operating cost and has a profit target, from which they know the gross revenue that they want over the next quarter. They know how many rides they expect people to pay for, so they divide the target gross revenue by the number of trips to get the ticket price. Assuming that the train timetable is fixed, more paying passengers means they can charge less per ticket and still hit their targets.

So in the case of stealing from someone's wallet, the victim takes a $50 hit. In the case on not paying for a train ticket, the operator will have to charge a slightly higher rate to paying passengers, so between them, the paying passengers take a $50 hit. If there's only one person not paying then that doesn't make much difference. But if 1% of passengers aren't paying, or 10%, or 50%... then that can start to affect the paying passengers quite significantly.

Or if the train operator is a bit less charitable and doesn't raise/lower the price in response to number of passengers, then the train operator's profit takes a $50 hit, which is passed on to the share holders, who may well be (in part) yours and my pension fund.

I would say that just because the $50 loss is divided by a large number of people, it doesn't make it any more morally defensible.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#153

Post by amstrad464 »

xenophanes wrote: post #83
InclinedPlane wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still a fixed number of seats on the train (or plane). If someone "steals" a seat then that's a seat that someone else cannot have. This is dramatically different from the case of digital media where there is no similar impact. For music piracy the only cost is the potential lost sale of the music to the "pirate". Edit: to follow up, I'm a music pirate and proud of it. In my experience there are three types…

The fixed seats on train is only relevant if it fills up. So just imagine the case where it doesn't totally fill and consider his point again and you should see the parallel.

Even if the train doesn't fill up, you still need to pay for your ticket to compensate for the fixed costs.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#154

Post by burgerbrain »

potatolicious wrote: post #69
chc wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're repeating the big media newspeak. "Breaking the law" is not identical to "stealing." If you enter a place you are not allowed to be but do not deprive anybody else of property already in his custody, you are committing trespass and any number of other crimes, but you are emphatically not stealing. So please correct everyone you see making that argument.

> ""Breaking the law" is not identical to "stealing."" You are technically correct (according to Futurama, the best kind of correct). But you're also repeating the digital-communist newspeak also. "Piracy is not stealing" is not identical to "Piracy is not wrong". I realize that's not the position you're trying to push, but bear in mind that "Piracy is not stealing" is way too often used to justify piracy itself, as…

See, the issue here is one position is correct, and one position is incorrect.

Music "piracy" is copyright infringement in the eyes of the law. End of discussion.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#155

Post by tjr »

bandushrew wrote: post #148
tjr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few people write long stories for fun and it's much harder to write a good book then it is to make a good song. Probably. It might be more equivalent to compare a book with a whole album, or a chapter with a song. I'm not sure what quality of music you have in mind, or what quality of book, but I don't think writing good prose is of necessity significantly more difficult than producing good recorded music. Sometimes…

If their work is of sufficiently high value that the consumer is willing to pay for it, then it will survive. isn't that capitalism 101?

In a traditional model, if the consumer is not willing to pay for the product, then they don't get it.

With digital products, consumers have the (possibly illegal, unauthorized) option of getting a copy free of charge from someone other than the producer.

If consumer is willing to pay for the product, and if the producer is not authorizing copies of it, then the consumer (in theory) ought not get the product. But yet they are getting the product, because they are sidestepping the producers copyright.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#156

Post by kedixed »

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

There are two sides to the market though as well. What the music industry wants you to pay, and what you think you should pay. The music industry would like to get every penny it can from you, as would any share-holder based profit seeking company. It used to be able to dictate what we pay via the cd hard format industry.

Paying $30 for a CD with 12-19 songs, and not all songs being equal, it seems that there would be some dissatisfaction with the price per product.

You could view the current pirating activity of the general public as a back-lash to this long lasting penny pinching business. Couple this with the celebrity high-life led and promoted by the musicians and record industry, I for one don't want to be lining the pockets of these rich people. When I only get paid the equivalent of $30/h before tax, why the hell should I spend several hours of my time working in order to support the lives of richer people. Producing a remixed version of an old 80's song and adding the words 'dirty beat' does not mean you deserve several cars and houses and gold teeth. Its the fight club generation that does all the hard work, so we are going to take what we can from the corporate overlords.

Pirating will lessen when the market properly reflects the actual value of these products, and the industry embraces the ease of the digital format. Online subscription services should allow several cds worth for $5/month. If they are worried how easy it is to copy mp3's, then find ways to make the actual music a by product. Offer sneak previews to new albums, and discounts on concert tickets and merchandise. Imagine if I was one of 50 people to attend a private gig of some awesome band. It would make a lot of other people sign up as well.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#157

Post by rick888 »

hxa7241 wrote: post #139
rick888 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They really do have a different moral status though. Copyright and IP are purely pragmatic commercial arrangements. Any wrongness in infringement comes solely from it simply being against the rules of a particular game we have decided to play. If we had different rules, such copying would be harmless." You're making his point. You could also the same thing about anything.

> You could also the same thing about anything. That is not accurate. Many laws -- those we probably most respect -- are grounded on actual basic factual effects. They have a justification prior to conventional or legal constructs. For example, if you take a material object from me, you deprive me -- directly and physically. That is the core justification of normal property, and there is no such justification for IP.

"For example, if you take a material object from me, you deprive me -- directly and physically. That is the core justification of normal property, and there is no such justification for IP."

What about identity theft? You aren't actually "stealing" anything. The original identity is still there.

Counterfeiting (currency and things like ipods) is another example. It's illegal and you aren't actually depriving anybody of anything.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#158

Post by arjn »

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

I agree in general but IMO its even simpler than that. If you are taking someone else's work that they asked you to pay for, then you are STEALING. Its plain and simple.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#159

Post by Tycho »

hxa7241 wrote: post #150
Tycho wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that, in response to the GP, plenty of folk have 'inherent difficulty' respecting other peoples' property in many situations outwith the copying/piracy issue. Which is to say, the lowest common denominator is simply 'can I easily get away with this?' Piracy, regardless of anything else, is incredibly easy to get away with. But as far as the broader issue of copyright violation, to my mind it's really no…

> if we lose control chances are we can't make a living - which is why the law enforces your property rights That is a circular justification. People can only make a living from IP because of the law, so one cannot then justify the existence of the law because it helps people make a living. IP law, by definition, invents an artificial obstruction of other people's rights to copy. There must be a good reason for that.…

It's only a circular argument if you take property as an arbitrary axiom that can't be investigated further.

People need to use their mind to survive --> people must be able to reap the benefits of their mind/creativity to survive --> people must control the produce of their work/creativity to survive --> people should have property rights protected by the government

Property, including IP, is just a natural extension of freedom and living, it's about as fundamental as it gets. Of course it's hard to protect IP, but that's one of the benefits of having a highly civilized nation. They have the right to benefit from their creativity, and you're obliged to respect that. The law allows them to make a living, yes, just like the law allows most of us to make a living without people ripping us off or stealing, thank goodness. It makes perfect sense to have these laws.

The point of IP is that it's the produce of someone's mind, as direct a product as you can get. If you copy it without permission you know without doubt that you're undermining somebody's ability to benefit from their creativity, ultimately undermining their livelihood. That basically makes you a hypocrite.

The pragmatic argument (that without copyright/patents, innovation and investment would dry up) is secondary.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#160

Post by r0s »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #144
gnosis wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very simple. If you don't want the music you created to be available free of charge, don't release it! It's absolutely your choice. If you want to keep control of it, keep it private. But once you (by your own choice) make it available, don't be shocked or surprised if people share it without sending you money for every copy. The system we have for paying artists is clearly broken. It has been for a very long ti…

>It's very simple. If you don't want the music you created to be available free of charge, don't release it! If you don't want your car to be stolen then don't leave it in the street. If you don't want to be run over then don't walk anywhere. ... Seriously, if you one day forget to lock something up do you really think people should be free to help themselves to it? If you don't like the current music regime, don't b…

> If you don't want your car to be stolen then don't leave it in the street.

A car is a locked(presumably) metal box, it would be more apt to say: "If you don't want your cds stolen, don't leave them in the middle of the street"

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