131–140 of 193 posts
The clauses I have seen attempt to claim all intellectual work regardless of when it was done or whether it was related to the job. To me, this is an indication that we truly have not progressed beyond wage slavery. I believe such clauses should be illegal. I think one thing we might be able to do is to create a list of companies that have blanket clauses like this and then some people (not most) will have the luxury…
Does anyone have any anecdotes about companies enforcing this rule and coming after a founder that started a side project while working for the company?
Does anyone have any anecdotes about companies enforcing this rule and coming after a founder that started a side project while working for the company?
Do not do anything non-work related on company equipment! Ever, for any reason, seriously don't do it! Do not even research the idea! Assume the company is logging everything. They likely are. Honestly, I'd just focus on work and learn if you are just starting out. Learn as much as you can while employed by other folks (they are basically paying you to learn). Learn as much about the business your company is in too.…
I find that first advice a bit paranoid. What country are you from where it is normal that a company is logging and spying on its employers? I have a company laptop but there is no logging whatsoever. Outside office hours I use this laptop to do personal stuff all the time.
It may be that your employer doesn't do that. You would be extremely in the minority. Even connecting to the employers network, either from VPN or at the office (can get everything on the network up to layer 7), even using their DNS server (can log every DNS request), even using their AV software (can read every file on your system, even removable media), even using their proxy (can watch all your Internet traffic and decrypt SSL), or MaaS tools (game over, full access, including keylogging), there is a ton of tracking and monitoring that can be done from the most basic tools. Most web proxies are capable of breaking SSL requests to inspect the traffic and then rebuilding it before passing it on. I work with a technology that does deep packet inspection and full payload capture on every flow that hits the network.
It may be that your company doesn't do any of that. But before you go coaching people to quit their jobs or assume they're not being tracked, you should realize this is extremely common and any company who does not do it is putting themselves, their employees, and their customers at extreme risk when it comes to security. The most basic of malware could bring down the entire company if they don't have a proxy or AV. And if anyone can attach any device to the internal network without needing any controlling software or inspection software, if anyone can send whatever data they want out of the network, it's not a question of if you will be hacked, it's a question of how long have you been hacked and you just don't know it.
They're not using monitoring software to watch your Amazon shopping habits. They're using it to protect the company, their employees, and their customers.
The clauses I have seen attempt to claim all intellectual work regardless of when it was done or whether it was related to the job. To me, this is an indication that we truly have not progressed beyond wage slavery. I believe such clauses should be illegal. I think one thing we might be able to do is to create a list of companies that have blanket clauses like this and then some people (not most) will have the luxury…
I'm kind of mind-blown reading this thread. Right now I'm working on a product of my own, and I'm currently employed. The product has absolutely-zero-nada-nothing to do with what my company does, I do it on my own time, with my own money, with my own machine. Are you saying that I still may not be legally in the clear? If so, that is incredibly insane, and I can't believe clauses like that actually exist. Not sure ho…
Be careful about declaring your side project unrelated to work. Your definition of unrelated might not match your company’s definition.
If you are programming for your company, and programming for your side project, they’re related at that level at least. I realize they might still be 100% orthogonal, but your employer and the law don’t usually see things the same way you do.
For my last two jobs, I had a side-project before I interviewed, and when it came time to decide on their offer, I had a lawyer write an exclusion for my side-project, legally declaring it unrelated to the company’s business and legally allowing me to moonlight. Getting the lawyer to write it up seemed expensive before I did it, and then seemed like it was both inexpensive and invaluable insurance after I did it. Both companies signed and gave me offers. Asking for the exclusion didn’t seem to hurt my prospects.
On the positive good-news side, you probably are legally in the clear. And also, most companies don’t initiate legal action against employees with side projects. In the few cases I know about where legal action happened, there was more to the story and/or the side project was clearly related to the company’s business.
Does anyone have any anecdotes about companies enforcing this rule and coming after a founder that started a side project while working for the company?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow, okay. I honestly didn't believe that was legally possible - and thanks for pointing out that I'm probably wrong. I checked the wording of my contract, and regarding "my employer has ownership of my work" it explicitly says "im Rahmen dieses Arbeitsverhältnisses" -> "as part of this employment relationship". So I suppose I'm safe (there is a clause that I have to ask for permission to do side jobs; but I know com…
I asked about this before joining my current employer: I'd like to write a tetris clone and sell it on the AppStore (that was the specific example I used). I promise I won't use company resources. They said please don't. It's a grey area. Worst case you'll have to explain to a judge why your code doesn't infringe on anything the company owns or does. Even if it's something as trivial as a tetris clone. You are howeve…
If everyone acts in good faith Then nobody should end up in jail.
If too many people end up in jail Then major problems could occur.
The clauses I have seen attempt to claim all intellectual work regardless of when it was done or whether it was related to the job. To me, this is an indication that we truly have not progressed beyond wage slavery. I believe such clauses should be illegal. I think one thing we might be able to do is to create a list of companies that have blanket clauses like this and then some people (not most) will have the luxury…
In California, such clauses are in-fact illegal.
Not as good as California's law, but still something.
See section 1, about half way down the first page: https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title34/Chapter39/C34-39_180001011...
Check your own state's laws.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find that first advice a bit paranoid. What country are you from where it is normal that a company is logging and spying on its employers? I have a company laptop but there is no logging whatsoever. Outside office hours I use this laptop to do personal stuff all the time.
Indeed. Also, I remember that when the GDPR got implemented in the EU, I had to agree on a new contract amendment in which the company legally had to list all the data that was collected on its employees (e.g. emails, personal info like age, address and income, ...).
That means even under GDPR, your employer could (and should) monitor what you're doing on their company-owned assets.
1. If you look at the contract, there will almost definitely be a clause where the company will claim rights over all IP that you generate, and that you need to pre-declare any IP that you already own (otherwise they will have the right to claim it). If there isn't, there should be and it's OK to push back against it not being there.
Once that is sorted, write up a declaration of all the ideas that you have had so far for your side hustle and submit it to the company. (You don't have to go into detail: bullet points are fine.)
This gives both you and the employer the protection they are looking for.
2. Starting a business is mostly not about the IP of the software. I have had customers go bananas over something that I spent a day writing. (I have also had stuff that I spent a year writing go nowhere and never sell.)
Most of the ideas that you think are good will be impossible to sell profitably. The first step in any business is establishing that there's a real customer need, and that you can reach those customers. You will probably try 20 different ideas before one works. Buy adwords for them, or do some other kind of outreach to customers and see what works: you also need to go and talk to potential customers. (e.g. every Saturday meet up with someone).
Off the back of this you will eventually find something that works, that's easy to sell and easy to explain, and you will probably have a backlog of customers wanting to buy it. You will also discover that it's probably only a few weeks' work to build the prototype. You can then approach your employer and discuss what you want to do, and get an exemption to the IP clause, or quit and use your savings.
If your first thought on starting a business is to start coding, you're setting yourself up for failure.