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Is reason the slave of the passions?

prospectmagazine.co.uk

21–30 of 36 posts

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#21

> But if we are sensible, the pursuit of human happiness, personal and collective, remains the goal of most of what we do. Such a basically utilitarian ideology requires around it a structure of reasoning, not passion, selfish or unselfish. David Hume's point was that reason alone could not justify the pursuit of human happiness or anything else, because it only lets you go from one statement to another, which means…

Very few serious philosophers would disagree with Hume. However, I suspect that many non-philisophers are happy to appeal to reason as a source of normative beliefs, thus “facts don’t care about your feelings” (well quite—they are incapable of caring), complaints about the irrationality of populists, &c.

> Very few serious philosophers would disagree with Hume.

Well, "very few" is always in the eye of the beholder, but I'd like to challenge this a little bit. The majority is Humean, I agree with that, but there are a number of non-Humean moral philosophers about moral motivation, for example Scanlon and Shafer-Landau. It's actually an ongoing and long-standing debate and with good arguments for both sides.

The SEP article on moral motivation summarizes part of the debate.[1]

[1]: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-motivation/#HumVAnt...

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#22

> But if we are sensible, the pursuit of human happiness, personal and collective, remains the goal of most of what we do. Such a basically utilitarian ideology requires around it a structure of reasoning, not passion, selfish or unselfish. David Hume's point was that reason alone could not justify the pursuit of human happiness or anything else, because it only lets you go from one statement to another, which means…

The crux of the matter is that "reason" is not absolute. People rarely do things that they (at the moment of committing the act) believe to be unreasonable - generally, every action taken seems quite reasonable "at the moment". It is only retrospectively that they realize that their past actions/thoughts were unreasonable.

There is a very nice discussion on the relativity of rationality in the book "Instincts of the herd in peace and war" by Trotter. I copy a relevant paragraph below:

The religious man accuses the atheist of being shallow and irrational, and is met by a similar reply ; to the Conservative, the amazing thing about the Liberal is his incapacity to see reason and accept the only possible solution of public problems. Examination reveals the fact that the differences are not due to the commission of the mere mechanical fallacies of logic, since these are easily avoided, even by the politician, and since there is no reason to suppose that one party in such controversies is less logical than the other. The difference is due rather to the fundamental assumptions of the antagonists being hostile, and these assumptions are derived from herd suggestion ; to the Liberal, certain basal conceptions have acquired the quality of instinctive truth, have become " a priori syntheses," because of the accumulated suggestions to which he has been exposed, and a similar explanation applies to the atheist, the Christian, and the Conservative. Each, it is important to remember, finds in consequence the rationality of his position flawless, and is quite incapable of detecting in it the fallacies which are obvious to his opponent, to whom that particular series of assumptions has not been rendered acceptable by herd suggestion.

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very few serious philosophers would disagree with Hume. Relatively few serious philosophers disagree with the positive component of Hume's claim: that reason is (for many people, at least) the slave the passions. On the other hand, many philosophers disagree with the normative component: that reason ought to be the slave of the passions, or that it must be so. Hume himself has a thing or two to say about juxtaposin…

> that reason ought to be the slave of the passions, I don't think you will find Hume actually arguing this. People read this into him because they glide so easily from is to ought . > or that it must be so This is a factual, not a normative claim.

The quote is in fact

> Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions...

However, given the context, I suspect that the use of the word "ought" here has a slightly different meaning than we tend to infer these days.

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that desires aren't justified by reason in and of themselves, but I don't think that's ultimately relevant (morally or otherwise). It's an empirical fact that we must act on our desires; when I examine my actions closely I notice that all of them can be traced back to some desire or combination of desires. From that empirically derived fact I posit that we can say the question "can reason alone justify the…

> It's an empirical fact that we must act on our desires; Is it? > when I examine my actions closely I notice that all of them can be traced back to some desire or combination of desires. But when I introspect, the opposite happens. When I examine my desires closely, they disappear and I am left with "well I often engage in X, Y and Z goal-seeking behaviours."

Indeed, a desire is ultimately the habit of seeking a particular goal. The comment you replied to stands regardless.

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few serious philosophers would disagree with Hume. However, I suspect that many non-philisophers are happy to appeal to reason as a source of normative beliefs, thus “facts don’t care about your feelings” (well quite—they are incapable of caring), complaints about the irrationality of populists, &c.

Reason as a guidance for beliefs makes perfect sense - they are the constraints for what is possible. When it comes to actions it is the how and not the why. It isn't wrong to use it in that way as a source of some beliefs. That you won't be able to build a skyscraper just by drawing blueprints is reason. However it doesn't include the motivations - only how they may be served or if the goals and outcomes are out of…

By normative beliefs I refer to your “motivations”, not intermediate ends.

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very few serious philosophers would disagree with Hume. Relatively few serious philosophers disagree with the positive component of Hume's claim: that reason is (for many people, at least) the slave the passions. On the other hand, many philosophers disagree with the normative component: that reason ought to be the slave of the passions, or that it must be so. Hume himself has a thing or two to say about juxtaposin…

> that reason ought to be the slave of the passions, I don't think you will find Hume actually arguing this. People read this into him because they glide so easily from is to ought . > or that it must be so This is a factual, not a normative claim.

> I don't think you will find Hume actually arguing this. People read this into him because they glide so easily from is to ought.

I don't disagree with the second part. But the ought is explicit in THN, like 'n4r9 says below. I can think of two (definitely not the only two) plausible interpretations:

1. Reason is necessarily the slave of the passions. If so, there is no sensible way in which it ought be, since normative claims require that a thing could be otherwise. If Hume truly means that, then his "ought" is probably more of an admonishment against trying (and inevitably failing) to usurp the passions. This is a different sense, but I think it's close enough in kind to justify the interpretation.

2. Reason't isn't necessarily the slave of the passions. This makes the "ought" clause more intelligible from my position, but isn't really supported by Hume's account of moral action (i.e., how we find ourselves driven to it).

> This is a factual, not a normative claim.

It's normative in the context of the "admonishment" interpretation above. But yeah, not from #2.

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#28
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few modern philosophers, perhaps. Starting at least with Plato, it was entirely the opposite, that the individual whose passions are completely controlled by reason is ultimately happy. The individual controlled completely by his passions is the most unhappy. This is because Plato believed supreme happiness was found in perceiving the good itself using reason. Nominalists, such as Hume, don't believe there is su…

> Nominalists, such as Hume, don't believe there is such a thing as 'good itself', and believe all mental abstractions are merely labelings of physical things. Thus, mental abstractions cannot be the goal of our desire. Only physical things can be the goal of our desire, and we must necessarily be ruled by our passions. I don't think this chain of reasoning is consistent with Hume's. Hume is an empiricist, not a nomi…

In that case he seems to not believe in free will. Free will is necessary to choose abstract concepts for their own sake, since as he notes only physical passions can drive us to take involuntary action.

At any rate, it seems to be all part of the same package, at least to me.

As a side point, I've noticed that pretty much all these cutting edge, modern ideas that we believe have overthrown the ideas of the past were all around at the same time as Plato. In fact, a number of dialogues deal with debating concepts such as relativism, scientism, Nietszche's will to power, Kant's idea that we are trapped by mental constructs, etc. Intelligent design was even a big thing, and apparently was what started Socrate's on his philosophic quest.

Reading through modern philosophy strikes me as pretty mundane, and it seems as if these modern philosophers were really myopic and either never read classic philosophy (most probably did) or just picked out the pieces they liked and ignored the counter arguments. Then they get paraded around as if they are brilliant innovators to an audience that doesn't know any better.

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#29
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nominalists, such as Hume, don't believe there is such a thing as 'good itself', and believe all mental abstractions are merely labelings of physical things. Thus, mental abstractions cannot be the goal of our desire. Only physical things can be the goal of our desire, and we must necessarily be ruled by our passions. I don't think this chain of reasoning is consistent with Hume's. Hume is an empiricist, not a nomi…

In that case he seems to not believe in free will. Free will is necessary to choose abstract concepts for their own sake, since as he notes only physical passions can drive us to take involuntary action. At any rate, it seems to be all part of the same package, at least to me. As a side point, I've noticed that pretty much all these cutting edge, modern ideas that we believe have overthrown the ideas of the past were…

> In that case he seems to not believe in free will. Free will is necessary to choose abstract concepts for their own sake, since as he notes only physical passions can drive us to take involuntary action.

Hume argues explicitly for free will via compatibilism. The SEP has an excellent summary of the argument[1], but in sum: what matters for moral responsibility is hypothetical liberty. Our ability to will (undisputed by Hume) grants us HL.

The interplay being passions (physically ended or otherwise) and voluntary/involuntary action in Hume's account is complex and can't be accurately reduced to a deflation of free will.

> As a side point, I've noticed that pretty much all these cutting edge, modern ideas that we believe have overthrown the ideas of the past were all around at the same time as Plato. In fact, a number of dialogues deal with debating concepts such as relativism, scientism, Nietszche's will to power, Kant's idea that we are trapped by mental constructs, etc. Intelligent design was even a big thing, and apparently was what started Socrate's on his philosophic quest.

I think this is a misapprehension of Modern (i.e., 17th to 19th century) philosophy. Modern philosophy is explicitly a rediscovery and re-evaluation of Classicial philosophy, having been largely lost to (or dogmatized within) the Western world. Overarching ideas follow suit; Hume, Kant, et al. make explicit reference to their forebears. And that's not to say that Modern philosophy lacks in innovation: there is no appreciable equivalent to Kantian duty, Millian global happiness, Cartesian skepticism, &c in Classical philosophy. Modern political theory doesn't exist without natural law, &c.

FWIW, I don't think that "scientism" is an intelligible subject within modern philosophy: it's only within contemporary philosophy that we've really begun to develop a formal account of what science actually is. Hume, Kant, and contemporaries don't have a rigorous concept of science discrete from the general practice of philosophy in the natural domain.

Similarly for Socrates and intelligent design: I'm guessing you're referring to his teleological claims. But keep in mind the historical context: the Greek religion was explicitly concerned with dividing the natural world into the domains of anthropomorphic gods, and Hesiod's Theogony was already 200+ years old by Socrates' time. Given this and his reference to pre-Socratic thought on teleology, it's unlikely that he had anything resembling contemporary creationism in mind.

> Reading through modern philosophy strikes me as pretty mundane, and it seems as if these modern philosophers were really myopic and either never read classic philosophy (most probably did) or just picked out the pieces they liked and ignored the counter arguments. Then they get paraded around as if they are brilliant innovators to an audience that doesn't know any better.

What audience? I was educated in philosophy, and I certainly wasn't taught (or primed) to treat Modern philosophers as brilliant innovators in contrast to Classical philosophers. On the contrary: both groups were held in extremely high regard, and Classical philosophy remains central to contemporary ethics (see Anscombe, Arpaly, and other revitalizers of virtue). Formal logic is introduced with Aristotle. Ontology is introduced with Plato.

In any case, it's important to not interpret the different eras of philosophy as existentially clashing with or ignoring the others. The history and development of philosophy is a unified one.

[1]: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume-freewill/

Re: Is reason the slave of the passions?

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that desires aren't justified by reason in and of themselves, but I don't think that's ultimately relevant (morally or otherwise). It's an empirical fact that we must act on our desires; when I examine my actions closely I notice that all of them can be traced back to some desire or combination of desires. From that empirically derived fact I posit that we can say the question "can reason alone justify the…

> It's an empirical fact that we must act on our desires; Is it? > when I examine my actions closely I notice that all of them can be traced back to some desire or combination of desires. But when I introspect, the opposite happens. When I examine my desires closely, they disappear and I am left with "well I often engage in X, Y and Z goal-seeking behaviours."

Don't “goal-seeking behaviors” imply desire? I can’t imagine a goal I might seek that isn’t a desire itself or connected closely to a desire.
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