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If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

anildash.com

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Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#111

Post by cannonedhamster »

codinghorror wrote: post #75
uniformlyrandom wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, - and a lot of online communities on the internet has reached that scale. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit... In case of reddit, the problem is even more interesting. There are subreddits, so it is naturally segregated, and moderators and community are local. The communities can use downvotes to 'stone' an offender, and local elected moderators can enforce a ban. In case moderator or community mishandles the…

I deleted my Reddit account long ago. Opinion based downvoting is so toxic on small subreddits, and cannot be disabled in any meaningful way.

I deleted my account after someone who was obviously just being a dick to me in a subreddit got me temp banned for trying to reach out to them in a PM and be civil. The guy posted the message which was entirely civil and claimed it was harassment. No threats, no name calling, suggested based on his public posts that we had a lot in common and it looked like in another topic we might be good friends, how that leads to a site wide temp ban I don't know, but his completely dick, personally insulting comments because he disagreed about a software feature we're apparently wanted. Thanks Reddit I'll pass, honestly most social media is pretty much a cess pool which is why, present company excepted, I avoid it.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#112

Post by cannonedhamster »

dahart wrote: post #18
knolax wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no, when's the last time you've actually seen the rules enforced?

All the time. I see dang smoothing things out like almost daily. You can also turn on “showdead” in your profile options, and maybe you’ll become more aware of it.

I was not aware what this feature did. Thanks for pointing it out. I generally enjoy reading things even if I disagree with them because they tend to at least give me something to think about.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#113

Post by cozuya »

cannonedhamster wrote: post #110
cozuya wrote: post #107

I've been grappling with this for a while. I run a site/app that is a popular team based hidden roles indie board game. Apparently its full of assholes. I mean I get it, the theme and dynamics don't lend itself to happy players really but I got nothing - I've put hundreds of hours into volunteer moderator tools and they work great, the site itself does not have a griefing/racism/hate speech problem, but it does still…

I mean, the game itself sounds like the type that would draw people who wanted to prove to others how smart or good they are from your description(PvP). I find that community/coop based games (PvE) tend to draw less assholes because of the type of people who enjoy those games.

Yeah it is the hardest of hardcore PvP games - it involves people having to lie to other people, every game. Throw in internet strangers and an ELO system and yeah it becomes an impossible thing to moderate other than "don't use hate speech or get banned". I just wish I knew what I could do better. Things like this get me down a bit. https://old.reddit.com/r/SecretHitler/comments/b9l1kv/secret...

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#114

Post by cannonedhamster »

cozuya wrote: post #113
cannonedhamster wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the game itself sounds like the type that would draw people who wanted to prove to others how smart or good they are from your description(PvP). I find that community/coop based games (PvE) tend to draw less assholes because of the type of people who enjoy those games.

Yeah it is the hardest of hardcore PvP games - it involves people having to lie to other people, every game. Throw in internet strangers and an ELO system and yeah it becomes an impossible thing to moderate other than "don't use hate speech or get banned". I just wish I knew what I could do better. Things like this get me down a bit. https://old.reddit.com/r/SecretHitler/comments/b9l1kv/secret...

I mean it sounds like the game is attracting the type of people who would be attracted to the title, and then sticking around for the challenge. I don't think that's a problem you really need to invest in solving. Eve online has a similar problem with the ability to rob entire months of work with betrayal. Any game where lying can lead to a positive outcome is generally going to encourage a mindset. If your players like the game then it's the niche that you're serving, doesn't seem to be anying wrong with that, they're having fun. My question to you would be are you enjoying running the game and building it, you're there now important person in this.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#115

Post by hhjjkkll »

braythwayt wrote: post #97
malvosenior wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to admit that when I first commented it was just on my gut telling me "this is awful and I know Dash's history and this bugs me". Through this discussion I actually narrowed in on why it was bothering me, so I probably should have made this point up front (but it wasn't cogent then). > that we both use precisely because it is moderated. That's not true, I'd prefer if HN was unmoderated.

_I'd prefer if HN was unmoderated._ That is very interesting. You do not seem naïve, so I infer you you are well aware of the social dynamics at play in an unmoderated forum. On such a site, if I say that attacking Mr. Dash for being an asshole itself is an ad hominem, somebody is going to say, "STFU, Nigger!" A bunch of other people, whether because they're racists, or just enjoy the spectacle, will upvote that comm…

Love your illustration/depiction of an unmoderated online cesspit. Would you like to donate your mind so that we can create the ultimate 4chan poster AI? /joke

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#116

Post by luckylion »

brenschluss wrote: post #91
makomk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a belief, shared by many of the folks who make arguments like this, that there is some obvious definition of "assholes" shared by every decent person, and that anyone who claims not to be able to see it is actively siding with the assholes. I'm pretty sure most of them don't actually have the same definition, but somehow they never realise this. You can see a hint of this in the final paragraph of this blog…

Assholery can be relative, but this argument is still true. I.E. you could say, “my website is full of people, who I think are assholes, but I don’t know what to do!” and this could be a problem. In addition, I find that “people who don’t care when they are told that their actions might be harming others” is a pretty easy way to define an internet asshole.

> In addition, I find that “people who don’t care when they are told that their actions might be harming others” is a pretty easy way to define an internet asshole.

Which is ... everybody? People that argue for purging "assholes" will hurt those people's ability to communicate. Tell them that, they'll say "I don't care, those people aren't people, they are assholes".

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#118

Post by brenschluss »

luckylion wrote: post #116
brenschluss wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assholery can be relative, but this argument is still true. I.E. you could say, “my website is full of people, who I think are assholes, but I don’t know what to do!” and this could be a problem. In addition, I find that “people who don’t care when they are told that their actions might be harming others” is a pretty easy way to define an internet asshole.

> In addition, I find that “people who don’t care when they are told that their actions might be harming others” is a pretty easy way to define an internet asshole. Which is ... everybody? People that argue for purging "assholes" will hurt those people's ability to communicate. Tell them that, they'll say "I don't care, those people aren't people, they are assholes".

Nope. Saying "removing a person who hurts other people is a form of hurt" is a form of semantic wordplay that hinges around two different social actions that _could_ be described with the same word, "hurt".

If you zoom out and understand the overall goal of the community, then this kind of wordplay is easily neutralized by understanding: "What kind of relationships, conversations, and communities do we want to create?"

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#119

Post by luckylion »

brenschluss wrote: post #118
luckylion wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In addition, I find that “people who don’t care when they are told that their actions might be harming others” is a pretty easy way to define an internet asshole. Which is ... everybody? People that argue for purging "assholes" will hurt those people's ability to communicate. Tell them that, they'll say "I don't care, those people aren't people, they are assholes".

Nope. Saying "removing a person who hurts other people is a form of hurt" is a form of semantic wordplay that hinges around two different social actions that _could_ be described with the same word, "hurt". If you zoom out and understand the overall goal of the community, then this kind of wordplay is easily neutralized by understanding: "What kind of relationships, conversations, and communities do we want to create…

"Hurt" is completely subjective, so when you say "I value that person's statement that they are hurt by something, but I don't value this person's statement", you're just saying that "that person good, this person bad". Which is fine, of course, it's your site, it's just not as easy as saying "those who don't care are assholes, and you don't need to care about assholes".

> "What kind of relationships, conversations, and communities do we want to create?"

You're absolutely right, it's just that the answer to this question is different for most people. There's no objective answer and in the end, you end up saying "these people here are more important than those people there". Which is fine of course, I just prefer that to be clear and not pretend like there's some absolute moral guidance we can turn to.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#120

Post by brenschluss »

luckylion wrote: post #119
brenschluss wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Saying "removing a person who hurts other people is a form of hurt" is a form of semantic wordplay that hinges around two different social actions that _could_ be described with the same word, "hurt". If you zoom out and understand the overall goal of the community, then this kind of wordplay is easily neutralized by understanding: "What kind of relationships, conversations, and communities do we want to create…

"Hurt" is completely subjective, so when you say "I value that person's statement that they are hurt by something, but I don't value this person's statement", you're just saying that "that person good, this person bad". Which is fine, of course, it's your site, it's just not as easy as saying "those who don't care are assholes, and you don't need to care about assholes". > "What kind of relationships, conversations,…

> There's no objective answer

Yes, absolutely

> and in the end, you end up saying "these people here are more important than those people there". Which is fine of course, I just prefer that to be clear and not pretend like there's some absolute moral guidance we can turn to.

If you do not have an answer to the question, then you just use other defaults. It’s like how there’s no such thing as “unbiased journalism” - you either consciously choose your bias or unconsciously use someone else’s.

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