Please don’t theme our apps • Hacker News Board

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#131

Post by dleslie » Sat, May 25, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

cuddlecake wrote: post #17

anoncake wrote: post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric. The author presents valid and sensible issues with the state of theming on the GNOME platform. And the overarching topic is essentially User Experience. Even the slightest change in color can introduce friction between UI elements. Or to be more extreme, if a theme turns your entire app into a white blurry mess, you would get mad at the application, and not…

> Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric.

I've had this comment on my mind for about an hour now, and it strikes me as both correct and yet the behaviour you identify is inoffensive to me in this context.

In particular, I don't disagree with users behaving in an egocentric manner regarding their desktop environment, the software they choose, and the way their hardware operates. That's an intimate and personal space where many spend most of their waking hours; they ought to feel empowered to control and operate it as they wish.

And if that's the case, it may be warranted to have a dismissive attitude towards those who would undermine that power.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#132

Post by bepvte » Sat, May 25, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #131

cuddlecake wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric. The author presents valid and sensible issues with the state of theming on the GNOME platform. And the overarching topic is essentially User Experience. Even the slightest change in color can introduce friction between UI elements. Or to be more extreme, if a theme turns your entire app into a white blurry mess, you would get mad at the application, and not…

> Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric. I've had this comment on my mind for about an hour now, and it strikes me as both correct and yet the behaviour you identify is inoffensive to me in this context. In particular, I don't disagree with users behaving in an egocentric manner regarding their desktop environment, the software they choose, and the way their hardware operates. That's an intimate…

Did you read the original post? Its about distributions providing themes, not users who tweak their desktops.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#133

Post by anoncake » Sat, May 25, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #123

anoncake wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Icon themes - should be more standardized, that's true. Why? There is already a standard. It does not specify what icons look like, but what they mean. Replacing an icon with another that has the same meaning is not a problem. Of course, if you, say, abuse the "system-search" icon to show a looking glass, this will not work with a theme using a different metaphor. The icon theme displayed in the open letter is just…

Meaning isn't binary and "system-search" could mean many different subtly different things depending on the application and the context. Often the choice of icon requires context that factors in the specific iconography. For example, what happens when there's system searching element that needs to be in visual proximity to a magnification, zooming or loupe-inspection element? It's impossible to know if an icon theme…

> Meaning isn't binary and "system-search" could mean many different subtly different things depending on the application and the context.

Actually, "system-search" is always "The icon used for the “Search” item in the desktop's panel application.".[1] Admittedly that makes it a bad example because an application generally doesn't need this icon.

> For example, what happens when there's system searching element that needs to be in visual proximity to a magnification, zooming or loupe-inspection element?

Hopefully, the application uses the standard icons. The user might have difficulties distinguishing idiosyncratic, unfamiliar icons.

[1] https://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-nami...

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#134

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, May 25, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

Asooka wrote: post #44

anoncake wrote: post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

And let's not forget that you need theming support so your OS can accommodate people with different vision requirements. So you can have a low-contrast theme, and a high-contrast theme, and a red-green colour-blind theme and so on. And let's not forget people who need a large text theme. Remember 15 years ago when we were so proud of GTK for being able to dynamically adjust for all these things (as opposed to Windows…

> There does seem to be a weird user-hostile school of GUI design and I would really like to know where it comes from, so that we may try to mount a re-education effort.

The Web. It comes from the Web.

Web development has this bullshit school of UI/UX design that prioritizes branding, dark patterns, and treating users like toddlers, at the expense of making the software functional and usable. Since we all get industry news from the Web, the Web patterns are the most well-known, and they pollute desktop software development too (doubly so when desktop software is nowadays built as webpages bundled to a browser runtime).

It's not that the Web school of UX is completely wrong; the problem is that it mixes ergonomics with a whole range of tricks designed to make the software more popular and more sellable in spite of the utility reduction they cause, and then sells the whole bundle as "scientifically validated" and "data driven".

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#135

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 25, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #131

cuddlecake wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric. The author presents valid and sensible issues with the state of theming on the GNOME platform. And the overarching topic is essentially User Experience. Even the slightest change in color can introduce friction between UI elements. Or to be more extreme, if a theme turns your entire app into a white blurry mess, you would get mad at the application, and not…

> Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric. I've had this comment on my mind for about an hour now, and it strikes me as both correct and yet the behaviour you identify is inoffensive to me in this context. In particular, I don't disagree with users behaving in an egocentric manner regarding their desktop environment, the software they choose, and the way their hardware operates. That's an intimate…

[deleted]

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#136

Post by DanBC » Sat, May 25, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

> My computer is not your billboard.

It's also not the distro's billboard, but you seem happy for them to impose their branding upon your desktop, even if they break functionality.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#137

Post by dleslie » Sat, May 25, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

bepvte wrote: post #132

dleslie wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric. I've had this comment on my mind for about an hour now, and it strikes me as both correct and yet the behaviour you identify is inoffensive to me in this context. In particular, I don't disagree with users behaving in an egocentric manner regarding their desktop environment, the software they choose, and the way their hardware operates. That's an intimate…

Did you read the original post? Its about distributions providing themes, not users who tweak their desktops.

I did.

Two things to consider:

- Distributions are users

- Users may choose a distribution that suits their desired aesthetic

Not everyone who wants a custom desktop aesthetic is technically adept enough to undertake the customization themselves, or perhaps they simply don't want to expend the effort. That's where distributions come in to assist.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#138

Post by anoncake » Sat, May 25, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

JasonFruit wrote: post #67

anoncake wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But what about the icon themes major distributions pick?

That's fair; the major distributions usually choose better themes. There are also minor distributions, however…

Minor distributions have a minor impact. And the few people who use them presumably do so because they like the weird choices the distributions make.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#139

Post by gmueckl » Sat, May 25, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #60

gmueckl wrote: post #32

Color themes seem like a brilliant idea until hit the point where your custom control needs this one extra distinct highlight or background color to convey state. Then you're out of luck. You only have bad options left: opt out of system theming and enforce your own or hardcode a color (or put it into the settings dialog) and accept that it breaks with any non-default theme out there because no user will take time to…

Or you use the extra distinct highlight or background color the system theme specifies.

That is not enough. What if I need three clearly distinguishable background colors to convey different states for list entries?

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#140

Post by anoncake » Sat, May 25, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

rangerpolitic wrote: post #116

anoncake wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing theming doesn't modify the software. It's reasonable to expect a developer to support software being used in an environment that does not 100% match what they use (to the extent it's reasonable to expect support in the first place).

> Good thing theming doesn't modify the software. Changing the UI changes the software from the user perspective.

That's why they're users and not developers.