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Please don’t theme our apps

stopthemingmy.app

11–20 of 206 posts

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#11
post #3

I feel like an "open letter" is a pretty odd way to ask something of the maintainers of distributions that do not install GNOME with its stock Adwaita theme. Indeed, despite being created some two weeks ago, the (small) notice at the top that this particular open letter is aimed only at distribution maintainers was only added yesterday[1]. How many do so, anyway? I know Ubuntu has the Yaru[2] theme by default. I'll a…

System76's Pop_OS version of Ubuntu with Gnome Shell comes with a very nice theme too.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#12
post #9

Icon themes - should be more standardized, that's true. GTK stylesheets - mostly a problem of different GTK versions they're made for, because GTK versioning is a mess. App Icons - so what? I think most people like consistency - look at Windows 10 and its ~4years of development, it's still a mess and if I had an option I'd switch right away All in all I think the choice should be left on the user after distro install…

> Icon themes - should be more standardized, that's true.

Why? There is already a standard. It does not specify what icons look like, but what they mean. Replacing an icon with another that has the same meaning is not a problem. Of course, if you, say, abuse the "system-search" icon to show a looking glass, this will not work with a theme using a different metaphor.

The icon theme displayed in the open letter is just garbage. Using it as an an example is like saying distributions should not change the default font because they might choose Wingdings.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article had pretty clear examples of where theming went wrong. Themes are imposing a real cost on developers who let's be honest are doing the Linux platform a massive favour by even bothering to write apps for it. I hope the audience of that article are a little more sympathetic than yourself.

The article has one valid example of a bug. If it's a bug in the application, writing an open letter about it is not helpful. If it's a bug in the theme, the application developer is just not responsible for it.

If you clicked through to the blog post linked in the article, you'd see more examples. https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-a...

>If it's a bug in the theme, the application developer is just not responsible for it.

And how many times would they have to tell the end user who opened an issue on their app's tracker that?

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#14
post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

Did we read the same letter? This letter was aimed at distributions and theme developers not end users. Hell there’s even a paragraph aim directly at end users. > If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. You’ve completely dismissed all of their concerns out of hand, in an entirely unhelpful and hostile manner. Why did you even bother writing a comment?

The parent correctly notes that theming is a valid feature of the platform, and asking essentially for ignoring the feature because of brand issues sounds ridiculous. It maybe 'unhelpful', but sometimes we just express our opinions here, not running consultancy services. It's called commentary section for a reason.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#15
The whole letter sounds weird when talking about free software. Software freedom main benefit is that the user can change the software. Theming it is probably the most accessible form of modification and should be celebrated. Asking not to theme is contrary to the free software ethos itself.

The situation is even more tricky as what is being modified is not even the software itself but the system dependencies. Essentially the developers in this letter say: do not run our software on an environment that is not the one we support (in practice fedora or a close clone of it) and if you create a distro make sure its a clone of what we support.

I understand the fact that developers do not want to support bugs due to user modifications and strange environments. Free software doesn't imply free support so they can put any restriction on what they want to do. The letter however would have been much less weird if it said "we cannot ensure quality of software X except on our build running on a supported environment, if you run the software elsewhere or with changes (and theming is a change) please don't call it X to avoid confusion and remember you are on your own".

What Firefox did I think its a smart solution to this problem. " We offer Firefox on platform x,y,z. If you build it on something else, call it something else, if you run it on another platform remember you're on your own".

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#16
post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

Did we read the same letter? This letter was aimed at distributions and theme developers not end users. Hell there’s even a paragraph aim directly at end users. > If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. You’ve completely dismissed all of their concerns out of hand, in an entirely unhelpful and hostile manner. Why did you even bother writing a comment?

Totally agree. Users have the power to do what they want at the end of the day. What's annoying is when you install an app and by default you don't recognise it's icon because of theming. Or the menu text is suddenly the same colour as the background, thereby making it unreadable and unusable.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#17
post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric.

The author presents valid and sensible issues with the state of theming on the GNOME platform. And the overarching topic is essentially User Experience.

Even the slightest change in color can introduce friction between UI elements. Or to be more extreme, if a theme turns your entire app into a white blurry mess, you would get mad at the application, and not the theme. Although many of the same design principles are used in the making of either a chair or a graphical user interface, they are definitely not the same in any regard.

On the topic of icons: just like language, they evolve over time. On top of that, icons can have different meaning depending on your background. Icons can be combined to form a composite icon, and now imagine one of those icons is not displayed as you intended it to be. The entire meaning can change because the design intentions are lost.

On the topic of branding: it's not about your desktop being a billboard. It's about being able to recognize the brand across different operating systems, and it's also - more or less - the only thing about the product that is not designed for the purpose of user experience (but in a sense, they still are). And let's be honest: most apps we use in our day to day life have very tame brands and adhere to certain standards. That is because the apps we use are usually good, and we throw the bad, obnoxious ones away really quickly.

All in all, the author presents valid concerns, especially if you don't project them on how you prefer your UI, but rather, how potential Linux / GNOME users could have additional difficulties because of theming issues.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#18
Trying to explain to hardcore techies the value of consistent design and workflow is fruitless in my experience. They want full control over everything, even the things they are not experts in, and will put together byzantine Rube Goldberg machines to do it. And then chastise you for not seeing how "easy" it is to build and maintain. The complexity and effort you need to put in to make these situations work is a feature, not a bug. Wouldn't want things to just work, you'd have all this free time to not think about computers, like a scrub.

Had this argument plenty of times before. Even when the resulting mess takes twice as long to work with, they prefer it because of [vague handwavey objection that will be replaced by another one as soon as you refute it].

You cannot do design by numbers, and you cannot approach it like a programmer. The kind of sameness you want in design is a different kind than in code.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#19
This is so confusing. Why build for a system that does this, then? Separately, isn’t the point of all this that people have freedom to do what they want with their system?

And honestly, complaining about the harm to your brand, come on. Give me a break.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#20
post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

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