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Please don’t theme our apps

stopthemingmy.app

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Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#31

Post by sp332 »

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #28
avianlyric wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t take issue with people expressing opinions, or even pointing out that theming is a platform feature. But I do take issue with attacking developers who write applications for free, and contribute to the Linux ecosystem, for making a reasonable request to platform developers.

Just bc you wrote something doesn't give you the right to dictate how I use it on my personal machine.

Again, this letter is not aimed at end users. "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us."

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#32

Post by gmueckl »

Color themes seem like a brilliant idea until hit the point where your custom control needs this one extra distinct highlight or background color to convey state. Then you're out of luck. You only have bad options left: opt out of system theming and enforce your own or hardcode a color (or put it into the settings dialog) and accept that it breaks with any non-default theme out there because no user will take time to look at the settings and fiddle with the colors. Either way, any usability benefit from good default themes (e.g. high contrast themes) is pretty much gone.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#33

Post by core1024 »

I agree that changing default icons is sometimes confusing. The user have hard times finding an app. Especially apps like Geany, Firefox and VLC get so weird icons in some themes that you can't visually confirm that this is the correct app.

I also agree that if you make an app screenshot/tutorial it is better to use the default theme unless you are targeting users for specific distro.

However I see some flaws in Adwaita (the default GTK theme) and a lot other themes regarding the titlebars:

1. They are too tall for no obvious reason.

2. the most irritating thing is that it is very hard to tell the active window. I mean it is a bit lighter but that's all.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#34

Post by allover »

anoncake wrote: post #21
EdwardDiego wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you clicked through to the blog post linked in the article, you'd see more examples. https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-a... >If it's a bug in the theme, the application developer is just not responsible for it. And how many times would they have to tell the end user who opened an issue on their app's tracker that?

> And how many times would they have to tell the end user who opened an issue on their app's tracker that? I'm afraid there is no way around that issue with free software.

In this case the author is suggesting a way to avoid it, for distributions to not theme and introduce the bugs in the first place.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#35

Post by megous »

threeseed wrote: post #23
anoncake wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has one valid example of a bug. If it's a bug in the application, writing an open letter about it is not helpful. If it's a bug in the theme, the application developer is just not responsible for it.

Have you actually written and supported an app before because that's not how it works. The users always blame the app. And then when they can't get the app to work they stop using it. Which means the developer just lost a potential customer.

I did, and you don't have these "customers" if distros don't ship your app. So you're most probably still net positive even if distros mod your app.

If you don't like people modifying your software, don't publish it under permissive license.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#36

Post by Legogris »

I couldn't disagree more. If the user wants the intended experience, they will not apply a different theme for your app. The whole reason a user has applied a different theme on your app is because they disagree with your choices and that's totally fine. What's next, asking Mozilla to take down user style sheets and extensions that restyle web apps?

This article is antithetical to the whole cultural foundation that GNOME builds on, without which there would probably not be an open source desktop ecosystem to build apps for.

I strongly urge the authors to take in the arguments of the top comments and reevaluate their positions.

And you know what? The more you enable and facilitate customization, the better and richer will the options provided by the community be. I can see how the argument makes sense for particular distributions like Elementary OS and maybe Linux Mint that are aiming at a unified experience for novice users. I really hope other distro maintainers don't pay attention.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#37

Post by suby »

avianlyric wrote: post #24
brokenkebab wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent correctly notes that theming is a valid feature of the platform, and asking essentially for ignoring the feature because of brand issues sounds ridiculous. It maybe 'unhelpful', but sometimes we just express our opinions here, not running consultancy services. It's called commentary section for a reason.

I don’t take issue with people expressing opinions, or even pointing out that theming is a platform feature. But I do take issue with attacking developers who write applications for free, and contribute to the Linux ecosystem, for making a reasonable request to platform developers.

It is not a reasonable request, though. End users want the ability to theme their system, and you cannot expect each end user to make their own themes. People rely on distributions for this to happen.

I understand that the devs do not want to be responsible for bugs stemming from broken themes, but this is the wrong solution. Ultimately the solution is a better theme API, not this which would essentially stop custom themes all together for most end users.

In other comments people argue that this isn't aimed at end users, but end users would of course also be impacted from this.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#38

Post by JasonFruit »

anoncake wrote: post #12
lousken wrote: post #9

Icon themes - should be more standardized, that's true. GTK stylesheets - mostly a problem of different GTK versions they're made for, because GTK versioning is a mess. App Icons - so what? I think most people like consistency - look at Windows 10 and its ~4years of development, it's still a mess and if I had an option I'd switch right away All in all I think the choice should be left on the user after distro install…

> Icon themes - should be more standardized, that's true. Why? There is already a standard. It does not specify what icons look like, but what they mean. Replacing an icon with another that has the same meaning is not a problem. Of course, if you, say, abuse the "system-search" icon to show a looking glass, this will not work with a theme using a different metaphor. The icon theme displayed in the open letter is just…

> The icon theme displayed in the open letter is just garbage.

A lot of icon themes are pure garbage, or at least incomplete. I don't think the example chosen here is any worse than what I've seen on my own system. Honestly, most icon themes are a failure; visual metaphors are just plain hard, and there's no substitute for literacy.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#39

Post by anoncake »

cuddlecake wrote: post #17
anoncake wrote: post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric. The author presents valid and sensible issues with the state of theming on the GNOME platform. And the overarching topic is essentially User Experience. Even the slightest change in color can introduce friction between UI elements. Or to be more extreme, if a theme turns your entire app into a white blurry mess, you would get mad at the application, and not…

> Your entire comment feels awfully dismissive and egocentric.

Actually, it's dismissive of the app developers' egocentrism. In so far as theming breaks usability, they do have a point. Distributions shouldn't make potentially incompatible changes to the default theme without QA. But it's not all the fault of distributions and not respecting branding is not a UX problem.

Yes, I may be too harsh towards people voluntarily writing free software. Developers putting their branding and their "vision" before usability and user control is just a major pet peeve of mine. And diplomacy is not my strong point.

> Even the slightest change in color can introduce friction between UI elements. Or to be more extreme, if a theme turns your entire app into a white blurry mess, you would get mad at the application, and not the theme.

Actually I would blame the theme, but yeah, the average user would. Wrongly assigned blame is a broader issue with free software and the distribution system though.

> On the topic of icons: just like language, they evolve over time.

The XDG Icon Naming Specification does not actually specify the names of concrete icons, but of meanings. For example, there is no "looking-glass" icon, but there is a "system-search" icon. If you use the "system-search" icon to display a looking glass because that's the metaphor the icon theme you're testing with uses, your application may display the wrong icon with a different icon theme.

If an application needs an icon that is not standardized, it can include it similarly to its own application icon.

> It's about being able to recognize the brand across different operating systems

No, it's about the user recognizing the application. Which they can. The Firefox icon the open letter used as an example is very much the Firefox icon, just in a different style.

> it's also [...] not designed for the purpose of user experience (but in a sense, they still are)

Exactly. User experience >>> branding.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#40

Post by grandinj »

brokenkebab wrote: post #14
avianlyric wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we read the same letter? This letter was aimed at distributions and theme developers not end users. Hell there’s even a paragraph aim directly at end users. > If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. You’ve completely dismissed all of their concerns out of hand, in an entirely unhelpful and hostile manner. Why did you even bother writing a comment?

The parent correctly notes that theming is a valid feature of the platform, and asking essentially for ignoring the feature because of brand issues sounds ridiculous. It maybe 'unhelpful', but sometimes we just express our opinions here, not running consultancy services. It's called commentary section for a reason.

Themeing is not a valid or supported feature. It's a hack that uses some facilities in GTK that were not intended for that purpose.
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