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Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

bloomberg.com

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Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#181

Post by sprash »

duxup wrote: post #24

It will be interesting to see how Japan deals with it culturally. From folks I know who lived there they said that while everyone was nice, it was always clear that they were very much outsiders.

The crime free nature of Japan will be a thing of a past. The quality of life for natives will decrease vastly. Wages will be pushed further down. Having worked together on many projects with Japanese I know immigrants have nothing of value to offer to the Japanese people.

Personally I'd rather live in a homogeneous society having seen how multiculturalism has decreased the quality of life for everybody in my country. I can see why the Japanese would want to avoid that. I hope they revolt.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#182

Post by duxup »

sprash wrote: post #181
duxup wrote: post #24

It will be interesting to see how Japan deals with it culturally. From folks I know who lived there they said that while everyone was nice, it was always clear that they were very much outsiders.

The crime free nature of Japan will be a thing of a past. The quality of life for natives will decrease vastly. Wages will be pushed further down. Having worked together on many projects with Japanese I know immigrants have nothing of value to offer to the Japanese people. Personally I'd rather live in a homogeneous society having seen how multiculturalism has decreased the quality of life for everybody in my country…

>I know immigrants have nothing of value to offer to the Japanese people.

I don't know how that makes sense.

People can't offer people anything outside of some described cultural boundaries?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#183

Post by Nadya »

Apocryphon wrote: post #95
wallace_f wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is an extroardinarily unique place. Even Australia, NZ, the UK and America have not just lot in common when you compare them to Japan, but a surprisingly lot. Japan really does have its own culture and identity. The Japanese have always wanted to protect their culture, identity, and economy, going back to where n Perry shot off a cannon to get them to open up the West's plans. As a foreigner who loves Japan, I…

Again, it seems highly dubious that opening up to economic migration means the same set of policies used everywhere, and the same results everywhere.

We've seen the same results in every country that has attempted it, so why would one more country be any different? How many repeating occurrences of something occurring do you need before you can look at the data and go "There's a strong correlation there." without being called or implied to be a racist?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#184

Post by TulliusCicero »

barry-cotter wrote: post #129
TulliusCicero wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the US has been at or under replacement rate for births overall for a long time now. I'm an exmormon, birth rates are higher for Mormons, certainly, but even they've been obviously dropping. I had three batchmates out of 9 in the missionary training center with 10+ kids in their family. That used to be relatively common, now it's almost unheard of for newer families.

The US has been under replacement fertility for less than 100 years, under four generations. On an evolutionary timescale this is nothing. It’s like dropping 100 thoroughbreds on a small island. Come back in 20 years and if there are still horses they’ll be maybe a hand shorter. Give it a hundred years and they’ll be ponies. If Mormons have higher fertility than non-Mormons then they’ll grow as a share of the populat…

> The US has been under replacement fertility for less than 100 years, under four generations. On an evolutionary timescale this is nothing.

So? Human society and culture can change absurdly fast. If the evolutionary impulse to reproduce was that strong, you wouldn't be seeing places like Singapore with comically low birth rates.

What evolution compels us to do is have sex. We've just disconnected that from reproduction.

Re:mormons, yes they have a higher fertility rate, but it's also been rapidly dropping. And without taking into account conversions/apostasy the numbers are kind of useless, and taking them into account is difficult because it's just inherently hard to predict. As an ex-mormon I'm aware that the internet has caused some major problems with retaining members for the church, because information has become so much more accessible (much of it contradicting church teachings, obviously).

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#185

Post by magpi3 »

hh3k0 wrote: post #111
Complexicate wrote: post #99

The Bloomberg article exacerbates the bigotry many Japanese have against their own fellow citizens. In the caption of the first picture: "She’s not all Japanese, but she was Miss Universe Japan 2015." Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother, attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japan…

> Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother, attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japanese will always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders. Just because she qualifies as Japanese from your point of view doesn't mean that the Japanese have to view it like you. White savior comple…

If mixed ethnicity makes you less Japanese than of course you will be discriminated against. At the very least families who want their descendants to be "more" Japanese will resist allowing their children to marry those who are "less" Japanese. That is discrimination. Even the term "less Japanese" sounds like a perjorative in a country so deeply founded on a specific cultural identity.

We live in a global world now. Countries that fundamentally tie their culture to ethnicities will someday be a thing of the past. It is just question of how long it will take some countries to accept it. And for the mistakes that the U.S. has made, one thing it has gotten right (for the most part) is its acknowledgement that diversity is a strength and being American has nothing to do with your bloodline.

Of course there are racists in the U.S. who would say otherwise, but I think they are short-sighted fools. One of the U.S.'s biggest competitive advantages in a global economy is its (relative) freedom from the historical baggage that weighs down other countries whose national identity is tied to a specific ethnicity or rigid cultural identity.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#186

Post by random42_ »

omot wrote: post #178

As a naturalized US citizen, I had to give up my Japanese citizenship. It was a hard decision to make since half my immediate family is still Japanese and I still love Japan. In part I never forgave Japan that they forced me to make this decision. Which is why I'm excited for a more ethnically diverse Japan. As a resident of the Bay Area I only see diversity as an advantage of introducing new thoughts and creativity.…

Did you actually had to give up on your Japanese citizenship? I know that when taking the oath you reject all other citizenship you may have but AFAIK this is not enforced, meaning you don't have to go to your embassy and formally require to give up on your citizenship. Really curious to know more about this.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#187

Post by magpi3 »

anthuman wrote: post #148
atom-morgan wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you claim that she is all japanese, then aren't you denying her african-american roots? I don't think so. I'm American, "all" American. I was born here and have lived almost my entire 29 years of life here. But I am also half-Korean. I think it depends on whether OP meant Japanese as a citizen or Japanese as their sole ethnic background.

American is a nationality, it is not an ethnicity. There is no "ethnic american" due to historic reason. You are half-korean, so what is your other half? White? So you are half korean and half white. You wouldn't say you are 100% korean and 100% white. That would be ridiculous right? Your ethnic history and composition can't add up to 200%. Even if you claimed to be 100% korean or 100% white, neither white nor korean…

The conflation that is happening in this thread is between culture and ethnicity not nationality and ethnicity. When someone of mixed race says they are "all Japanese" they are obviously talking about their culture and not their passport.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#188

Post by GoblinSlayer »

Apocryphon wrote: post #11
jlawson wrote: post #6

So sad. Another ancient unique culture to be blended and homogenized into the global mass of undifferentiated Starbucks society. At least the megacorporations will get the cheap labor and undifferentiated consumers they want.

Why assume that Japanese culture is neither venerable nor attractive enough to withstand the phenomenon you’re describing?

It's not unthinkable their ability to withstand influence is based on monoculturalism. Immigration can dilute that ability. In any way change inherently conflicts with status quo.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#189

Post by sprash »

duxup wrote: post #182
sprash wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crime free nature of Japan will be a thing of a past. The quality of life for natives will decrease vastly. Wages will be pushed further down. Having worked together on many projects with Japanese I know immigrants have nothing of value to offer to the Japanese people. Personally I'd rather live in a homogeneous society having seen how multiculturalism has decreased the quality of life for everybody in my country…

>I know immigrants have nothing of value to offer to the Japanese people. I don't know how that makes sense. People can't offer people anything outside of some described cultural boundaries?

Having seen how Japanese work I know that the work ethic, reliability and efficiency can not be matched by anybody else on the globe. Foreigners would drag down the average which mathematically means nothing else than effectively extracting resources from the host society.

The exchange of ideas can always happen via tourism, Internet, business or whatever. Multiculturalism has nothing to do with the exchange of ideas. In the best case it means a culture of the lowest common denominator (McDonalds and Mickey Mouse) in the worst case it means eternal tribal war (Afghanistan, Middle East).

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#190

Post by bliblah »

random42_ wrote: post #186
omot wrote: post #178

As a naturalized US citizen, I had to give up my Japanese citizenship. It was a hard decision to make since half my immediate family is still Japanese and I still love Japan. In part I never forgave Japan that they forced me to make this decision. Which is why I'm excited for a more ethnically diverse Japan. As a resident of the Bay Area I only see diversity as an advantage of introducing new thoughts and creativity.…

Did you actually had to give up on your Japanese citizenship? I know that when taking the oath you reject all other citizenship you may have but AFAIK this is not enforced, meaning you don't have to go to your embassy and formally require to give up on your citizenship. Really curious to know more about this.

This is very accurate, countries do not share citizenship data so it is impossible for them to know who has 2 or more passports.

I have several friends that have remained in possessions of their previous passports and still renew them in case they ever need them.

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