Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#41

Post by jdietrich » Thu, May 23, 2019, 3:59 AM UTC

jlawson wrote: post #6

So sad. Another ancient unique culture to be blended and homogenized into the global mass of undifferentiated Starbucks society. At least the megacorporations will get the cheap labor and undifferentiated consumers they want.

All cultures are blended. Most of the things you think of as uniquely Japanese are in fact imports, or the hybrid cultural offspring of imports. Kanji was stolen wholesale from Chinese Hanzi, sushi evolved from fermented fish dishes from the Mekong, pagodas are a Chinese import, Buddhism is an import from India via China, the kimono came from China, manga is based on ukiyo-e which is based on Chinese woodblock printing techniques, kare raisu came from India via the British Royal Navy. I could go on ad nauseum.

Anyone who espouses cultural purity is simply ignorant of culture. If you perceive your cultural environment as homogenized, it's your own damned fault for being a passive consumer rather than an active participant.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#42

Post by exhaze » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:01 AM UTC

tmm84 wrote: post #28

GreaterFool wrote: post #18

> but it’s no longer quite right to call it homogeneous Are you sure? Japan is maybe 99% homogeneous? I live in central Tokyo and I can go on for days and days without seeing a foreigner! > it will inevitably introduce social strains Sadly, yes. I've observed this on few occasions.

I work in Akihabara. I see foreigners everyday. Even in Minato-ku I see plenty of non-Japanese people running around.

Even? Minato-ku has the highest density of foreigners of all the wards, something like 20% of the population.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#43

Post by GreaterFool » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:02 AM UTC

tmm84 wrote: post #28

GreaterFool wrote: post #18

> but it’s no longer quite right to call it homogeneous Are you sure? Japan is maybe 99% homogeneous? I live in central Tokyo and I can go on for days and days without seeing a foreigner! > it will inevitably introduce social strains Sadly, yes. I've observed this on few occasions.

I work in Akihabara. I see foreigners everyday. Even in Minato-ku I see plenty of non-Japanese people running around.

Add Shibuya (mainly around the station) and Shinjuku and you basically covered all foreigner hotspots! Those are the most non-representative areas!

But go to Shimokitezawa or Gakuendaigaku or anywhere off the beaten path and foreigners will be few and far between.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#44

Post by jkachmar » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:02 AM UTC

GreaterFool wrote: post #18

> but it’s no longer quite right to call it homogeneous Are you sure? Japan is maybe 99% homogeneous? I live in central Tokyo and I can go on for days and days without seeing a foreigner! > it will inevitably introduce social strains Sadly, yes. I've observed this on few occasions.

> I live in central Tokyo and I can go on for days and days without seeing a foreigner!

I’m quite surprised to hear this actually. I visited Japan recently and I consistently saw other foreigners around the center of Tokyo.

I think the only time I _didn’t_ see any other foreigners was when I was out in Ōtsu, but that’s sort of out there for most visitors anyway.

EDIT: I should add that I tried to make a point of walking around a bit, so I don’t think I was just taking the subway to commonly visited spots.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#45

Post by slang800 » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:03 AM UTC

allemagne wrote: post #8

benjohnson wrote: post #2

Im conflicted about this - I enjoy the multicultural aspects of my own town (Seattle) but I also sympathise with this idea of having a home culture.

I sympathize with the general desire to preserve a sense of cultural identity, but ultimately any attempt to keep a society static through time will slip through your fingers. No exceptions. At some point, especially at the pace the modern world is changing, we need to ask ourselves how much better off we'd be if we stopped putting so much meaning into an idea that's ultimately just a nice momentary illusion at best.

Maybe we need to care less about keeping up the pace at which the modern world is changing and more about maintaining a nice culture. I'd be willing to take a reduction in the GDP or a slow down in scientific advancement if it meant that the society I lived in was more coherent.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#46

Post by ggregoire » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:06 AM UTC

I was in Tokyo a few years ago, went back recently and I noticed the changes described in this article too. Every sign and menu are now in Japanese/Chinese/English. Waiters, salesclerks, metro station assistants now speaks English. And every 7-Eleven, Starbucks, etc… seems to employ foreigners instead of Japanese people (mostly from countries like Vietnam, Philippine, Thailand and India tho), who speak English perfectly.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#47

Post by Proven » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:06 AM UTC

Apart from the multiculturalism for its own sake, it's completely unclear why increased (or easier, or whatever) immigration would be necessary or beneficial.

There's no shortage of workers (salaries have been stuck at the same level for 20 years) and I can't think of any reasons the average Japanese would be in favor of this.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#48

Post by jdietrich » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:07 AM UTC

georgeburdell wrote: post #34

jdietrich wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ageing and shrinking population is a temporary, one-off problem. There's no fundamental reason why a replacement or below-replacement birth rate is a problem - in many ways it's advantageous - but it's a really big problem over the next few decades because we didn't plan for it. We have a big cohort of baby boomers with long life expectancies, grossly inadequate pension savings and considerable political power. W…

>The ageing and shrinking population is a temporary, one-off problem. There's no fundamental reason why a replacement or below-replacement birth rate is a problem - in many ways it's advantageous - but it's a really big problem over the next few decades because we didn't plan for it. Taking a perhaps unwarranted broad view, economies of scale allow for us to achieve certain productive activities that we would otherwi…

UN forecasts suggest that the global population will plateau at between 9 and 11 billion by 2100 to 2150, followed by stasis or a very gradual decline. IMO, those are excellent numbers - more than large enough to launch an interplanetary civilisation, but manageable within the resource constraints of Earth.

I'd be worried if the population was forecast to shrink below a billion, but that's highly unlikely on any reasonable timescale. I'd be worried if the population rose much above 11 billion, because then resources start getting really tight. Anywhere in the middle is fine by me.

If we do start terraforming Mars, I might be inclined to incentivise population growth. Unless we're absolutely certain that we can make it work, further population growth is a huge risk - every extra billion increases the pressure on resources, which increases the risk of conflict, which increases the risk of an extinction-level event.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#49

Post by TheChaplain » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:10 AM UTC

themagician wrote: post #12

jlawson wrote: post #6

So sad. Another ancient unique culture to be blended and homogenized into the global mass of undifferentiated Starbucks society. At least the megacorporations will get the cheap labor and undifferentiated consumers they want.

What is the alternative? All of the “developed” nations need immigration to prevent the social systems from completely falling apart. Our entire financial system is based on increasing population growth and the young paying to support the old. There aren’t enough young people. Without immigration, pensions, healthcare, social safety nets, property values… it all implodes. We go back to 1930 where old people just die…

Kids.

The primary reason as I understand it for the lack of kids is simply because it's a trap for women as it is now.

Maternity- and child care leave are too short. There are extreme shortage of daycare for infants and pre-school children, forcing women to stay home and even give up on their career until the child is old enough to go to/from school themselves.

And having 2-3 children pretty much kills any career.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#50

Post by themagician » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:11 AM UTC

blfr wrote: post #16

themagician wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative? All of the “developed” nations need immigration to prevent the social systems from completely falling apart. Our entire financial system is based on increasing population growth and the young paying to support the old. There aren’t enough young people. Without immigration, pensions, healthcare, social safety nets, property values… it all implodes. We go back to 1930 where old people just die…

What is the alternative? Having kids. Having a sustainable culture rather than some weird human shredder reliant on constant stream of new souls from abroad.

People can’t afford to have kids. Maybe if young people didn’t have to spend a huge portion of their paycheck supporting old people they could afford kids.

The older generation doesn’t want immigrants. The older generation votes against tax increases. The older generation does everything they can to keep home prices high. Then they demand no one cut their entitlements. All take, no give. It’s not surprising people aren’t having as many kids.