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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#281

Post by foldr »

linuxftw wrote: post #264
foldr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the case. The 737 MAX has different handling characteristics to a regular 737, but there is nothing inherently unsafe about those handling characteristics. The purpose of MCAS was just to prevent the need for pilots to recertify by masking the difference.

You don't know there's nothing inherently unsafe about the handling characteristics, that's a Boeing talking point. You're not qualified to make that determination, and the regulators didn't bother to make it either. > The purpose of MCAS was just to prevent the need for pilots to recertify by masking the difference This is a Boeing talking-point as well. The real purpose of MCAS might be to make an otherwise wildly-…

I mean, sure, there might turn out to be safety issues that we don't yet know about. You could say that about any plane.

>The real purpose of MCAS might be to make an otherwise wildly-unsafe plane flyable

MCAS would never activate in a typical flight, so I don't think it can be that bad.

There's a simple and plausible explanation for why MCAS was added (the desire to maintain the same type rating). That explanation doesn't entail that the 737 MAX had fundamentally unsafe handling characteristics, only that its handling characteristics differed significantly from those of other 737s. I'll stick with that explanation absent evidence to the contrary.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#282

Post by munk-a »

yodsanklai wrote: post #238
CaptainZapp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-but-not-yet-crashing shows up. They wouldn't even ground the fleet if death and destruction occurs. Like they didn't do after the Lion Air crash. Even after the Ethiopian plane they tried hell and high water, including a call to the president, to not have the plane grounded. It's clear that to Boeing, their…

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives. Isn't it the case by design for any corporation?

Why do we allow this. Why have we allowed an entity to exist that is driven so fully by greed to the disregard of all other pursuits - and understand, corporations aren't a natural existence, they are a thing constructed wholly by our societies.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#284

Post by pfortuny »

yodsanklai wrote: post #238
CaptainZapp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-but-not-yet-crashing shows up. They wouldn't even ground the fleet if death and destruction occurs. Like they didn't do after the Lion Air crash. Even after the Ethiopian plane they tried hell and high water, including a call to the president, to not have the plane grounded. It's clear that to Boeing, their…

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives. Isn't it the case by design for any corporation?

No: this is a meme which I do not know from where comes. The aim of a corporation is to do its business, not to make money. The first is before the second.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#285

Post by pfortuny »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #266
jjdjr0odo7 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially since this isn’t the first time Boeing’s malfeasance killed people. But the majority will merely sit and complain, making no real effort to act upon their anxieties.

> Especially since this isn’t the first time Boeing’s malfeasance killed people. What are you referring to here?

The MAX line being pushed on to “not requiring specific training”.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#286

Post by dragonwriter »

pfortuny wrote: post #284
yodsanklai wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives. Isn't it the case by design for any corporation?

No: this is a meme which I do not know from where comes. The aim of a corporation is to do its business, not to make money. The first is before the second.

The aim of a corporation is to serve the common interests of it's shareholders (you might add “as understood by it's management”); most commonly, with a widely held corporation, those common interests are limited to making money.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#287

Post by munk-a »

atoav wrote: post #276
yodsanklai wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives. Isn't it the case by design for any corporation?

Not necessarily. IMO it highly depends whether a company’s goal is short or long term gain. If you have a hard time competing and every day is a fight anyways, why would you act in a way that is sustainable in the long term? If you listened to the NYT’s the Daily podcast where they interview a former Boeing quality manager/whistleblower this is clearly the picture that is painted here: Managment doesn’t give a shit i…

> IMO it highly depends whether a company’s goal is short or long term gain.

It has been the case, recently, that a company that is traded publicly cannot have a long term goal - any such goal is held in place solely by the ephemeral existence of an autocratic executive and will dissipate once they are removed or retire, instead corporations seek constantly to maximize short term gain since incentive systems like stock options and our current form of performance evaluations reinforce this strategy.

Most of the companies that have had long term clout or tried to invest in long term research have been acquired and butchered by venture capitalists for a quick payday.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#288

Post by pfortuny »

Waterluvian wrote: post #248
rbanffy wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really worried. I prefer the A320 Neo because it's quieter and more comfortable, but the odds of dying due to an airplane accident are vanishingly small. Even if my chances of dying on a 737 MAX are much higher than dying on a tried and true A340, they are probably around the same as me dying from pancreatic cancer and I don't get my pancreas checked regularly.

I hear you and I'm mostly just using your comment to share my thoughts. I've learned not to treat the statistics because that doesn't work at the human level. Fear, anxiety, apprehension, are legitimate human conditions regardless of how irrational they are. And regardless of what the numbers say, there's an effective treatment available: filter flights by plane type. I personally don't care. But my wife does, and th…

Yep. You cannot overcome other person’s anxiety by encouraging him not to be anxious...

Peace of mind is worth much more than many many things.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#289

Post by dingaling »

_bxg1 wrote: post #270
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to boycott them altogether, at least in the U.S. If any billionaires out there were considering starting a company in the commercial airliner market, now would be an opportune moment...

Jet Blue only fly Airbus and Embraer types

Spirit and Frontier are all-Airbus

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#290

Post by munk-a »

dragonwriter wrote: post #286
pfortuny wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: this is a meme which I do not know from where comes. The aim of a corporation is to do its business, not to make money. The first is before the second.

The aim of a corporation is to serve the common interests of it's shareholders (you might add “as understood by it's management”); most commonly, with a widely held corporation, those common interests are limited to making money.

The poster above was half right that the incentive isn't necessarily to maximize profits, but you're more correct that our current societal rules make money the singular goal of these entities.
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