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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#261

Post by skookumchuck »

atonse wrote: post #152
retSava wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MCAS will likely be fixed in a way that makes it reliable and dependable. Boeing wouldn't dare anything else since there are a lot of eyes on them and how they handle this now. What worries me is not the MCAS (now), but what else might be lurking under the surface that Boeing pretends is not a problem. I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-…

Unless you start putting Boeing executives in jail, there is literally ZERO incentive for them not to repeat all this. In fact, the CEO and senior executives have probably already received their massive bonuses for the MAX sales. It's not like they're going to be asked to return those bonuses now with all this fiasco.

> there is literally ZERO incentive for them not to repeat all this

You're assuming they have no stock or stock options in Boeing.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#262

Post by skookumchuck »

ReptileMan wrote: post #179
atonse wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you start putting Boeing executives in jail, there is literally ZERO incentive for them not to repeat all this. In fact, the CEO and senior executives have probably already received their massive bonuses for the MAX sales. It's not like they're going to be asked to return those bonuses now with all this fiasco.

Boing executives and their friends and families also fly on their planes.

So do Boeing engineers, mechanics, and everyone who works there.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#263

Post by linuxftw »

TremendousJudge wrote: post #191
huslage wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 787 is not weird. It is an evolution of practices and learning from across the industry, academia and governmental organizations (NASA, ESA, etc) that culminated in a new product. The 100% composite structure has been completely flawless for the most part, with the largest issue being how to recycle the plane when it's done. Boeing has long outsourced the production of many components of all of its planes to vari…

>The 100% composite structure has been completely flawless for the most part Doesn't refute GP's point. All the 787s flying now are basically new planes. If they have issues that only appear after 10 years of use, they will all be "completely flawless" until they start undergoing unplanned disassembly while on the air.

Right, we don't know what the long-term usage of these composites in commercial aircraft will result in, in terms of service-life. I'm sure Boeing have their projections, and I'm sure they're optimistic. I think the larger firms will sell off their aging stock to developing nations as they approach end of life. Those nations might be inclined to extend the life of their air frames past original specifications due to economic reasons.

We know the FAA rubber-stamps whatever Boeing claims at this point, so don't expect regulators from keeping your plastic plane from disintegrating mid-flight.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#264

Post by linuxftw »

foldr wrote: post #64
wycy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be extremely hesitant to ever fly on a 737 MAX again because, even when MCAS is fixed, software is being used to fix a fundamental physics problem. I'd fly on other Boeing planes without worry, though.

This is not the case. The 737 MAX has different handling characteristics to a regular 737, but there is nothing inherently unsafe about those handling characteristics. The purpose of MCAS was just to prevent the need for pilots to recertify by masking the difference.

You don't know there's nothing inherently unsafe about the handling characteristics, that's a Boeing talking point. You're not qualified to make that determination, and the regulators didn't bother to make it either.

> The purpose of MCAS was just to prevent the need for pilots to recertify by masking the difference

This is a Boeing talking-point as well. The real purpose of MCAS might be to make an otherwise wildly-unsafe plane flyable, and without it it's a disaster waiting to happen. Again, we don't actually know how safe the plane is without it.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#265

Post by jeanl »

Waterluvian wrote: post #248
rbanffy wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really worried. I prefer the A320 Neo because it's quieter and more comfortable, but the odds of dying due to an airplane accident are vanishingly small. Even if my chances of dying on a 737 MAX are much higher than dying on a tried and true A340, they are probably around the same as me dying from pancreatic cancer and I don't get my pancreas checked regularly.

I hear you and I'm mostly just using your comment to share my thoughts. I've learned not to treat the statistics because that doesn't work at the human level. Fear, anxiety, apprehension, are legitimate human conditions regardless of how irrational they are. And regardless of what the numbers say, there's an effective treatment available: filter flights by plane type. I personally don't care. But my wife does, and th…

Completely agree. Convincing someone to feel/not feel is a senseless endeavor!

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#266

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jjdjr0odo7 wrote: post #198
atonse wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you start putting Boeing executives in jail, there is literally ZERO incentive for them not to repeat all this. In fact, the CEO and senior executives have probably already received their massive bonuses for the MAX sales. It's not like they're going to be asked to return those bonuses now with all this fiasco.

Especially since this isn’t the first time Boeing’s malfeasance killed people. But the majority will merely sit and complain, making no real effort to act upon their anxieties.

> Especially since this isn’t the first time Boeing’s malfeasance killed people.

What are you referring to here?

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#268

Post by rootusrootus »

ddalex wrote: post #100
ulfw wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to extend the plane and make it an A320/738-8 sized A220-500!

Make it a double decker single-aisle 2/3 seat split and name it A280.

Tongue-in-cheek? I thought this kind of extending was what people are blasting Boeing for?

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#269

Post by rootusrootus »

anoncake wrote: post #103
mikejb wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think EASA doesn't trust the FAA here because the FAA had less involvement in the original certification than some are comfortable with. So rather that asking the FAA to certify the entire plane and maybe risk a similar procedure (Boeing self-certifies most of it), they'll do it themselves. What I'm curious is whether EASA has similar certification shortcu... optimizations for Airbus.

I hope they don't. But Boeing not being trustworthy does not mean that Airbus isn't.

Just over a year ago Airbus paid a fine to Germany for bribery. So it appears they have their own corruption problems.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#270

Post by _bxg1 »

radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to boycott them altogether, at least in the U.S.

If any billionaires out there were considering starting a company in the commercial airliner market, now would be an opportune moment...

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