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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#251

Post by chr1 »

retSava wrote: post #115
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

The MCAS will likely be fixed in a way that makes it reliable and dependable. Boeing wouldn't dare anything else since there are a lot of eyes on them and how they handle this now. What worries me is not the MCAS (now), but what else might be lurking under the surface that Boeing pretends is not a problem. I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-…

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives.

That would not be bad by itself. It is only important that regulators and customers make sure that this leaves really big dent in their numbers.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#252

Post by spockz »

yodsanklai wrote: post #238
CaptainZapp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-but-not-yet-crashing shows up. They wouldn't even ground the fleet if death and destruction occurs. Like they didn't do after the Lion Air crash. Even after the Ethiopian plane they tried hell and high water, including a call to the president, to not have the plane grounded. It's clear that to Boeing, their…

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives. Isn't it the case by design for any corporation?

The problem is in the short term numbers vs long term. In the short term taking shortcuts was beneficial because it preventing recertifications etc, but in the long term the grounding and reputation damage cost more. Moreover, everyone has to be retrained now anyway.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#253

Post by Theodores »

radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

> "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software"

I think they just need to update the pricing structure.

Let the MAX fly as is but just halve the ticket prices, use cabin crew that are coming close to retirement (or have failed performance reviews), make the routes be in developing countries/states and keep the profits rolling in.

I am joking, however, if Boeing sold medicines, pesticides, lead paint, food additives or any number of other things deemed deadly in the home market then it could be exported overseas to be sold at a profit.

Even though Boeing, the FAA and Trump can be criticised for the handling of the 737 Max, the wider international community has done good, we haven't got these shambolic planes relegated to poorer parts of the world where lives are cheap.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#254

Post by 15155 »

drivebyops wrote: post #184
s_dev wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying -- even accounting for all the 737 Max crashes is still statistically by far the safest form of travel per unit of distance travelled -- the 737 Max is a blip just like 9/11.

The statistics for this include motorcycles. I would really like to see one for only vehicles.

Motorcyclist here: have you seen how motorcycle fatalities break down?

In the US, some overwhelming majority of these accidents are alcohol-involved and (I believe) single-vehicle.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#255

Post by village-idiot »

magduf wrote: post #221
village-idiot wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, recertification will not be cheap. Second, it will hurt sales. No airline wants to buy a plane they can’t fly, but they also don’t want to buy more old planes that use more fuel. My bet is that companies like Southwest will half all orders and see what happens. Finally, it’ll drive companies that straddle the Boeing airbus decide deeper into Airbus’ arms.

The problem with Southwest is that their entire fleet is 737s. So the 737MAX was a big thing for them: they could stick with that same crappy old airframe, but get better fuel economy, and not have to retrain pilots. They don't want to switch to Airbus because that means they can't standardize on a single model and manufacturer, and they'd have to retrain so many pilots too.

They’re probably stuck retraining their pilots one way or the other at this point, but I agree they’re in quite the pickle now.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#256

Post by rootusrootus »

magduf wrote: post #223
hef19898 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know this is one of the rare few, read I can't recall one, occasions in which EASA didn't accept FAA certification. Usually it is cross- certification between the two. Things are getting interesting and not necessarily in a good way as cooperation is reduced. That it makes sense in this special case is only further proof.

Yes, it necessarily IS a good thing for cooperation to be reduced: the FAA has proven that it cannot be trusted at all for airplane certification. The EU needs to stop trusting the US for anything at all, and start doing more for itself. When the US elected Trump, that should have been the signal that the US could no longer be relied on. Of course, there were many signs and problems before (like when W. Bush was elec…

Less cooperation between the FAA and EASA is not at all good. The whole reason aviation is so safe these days is because we've had good international cooperation from the beginning. The correct answer here is to work together to build/rebuild trust as necessary.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#257

Post by jacquesm »

ArcanianArcher wrote: post #243
yodsanklai wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives. Isn't it the case by design for any corporation?

Therein lies a problem that many people don't want to address

Many people don't want to address it because it isn't true. There are plenty of corporations that would not put lives on the line balanced against their bottom line. Yes, there are quite a few that do, it just does not extend to all of them, and I'd wager the larger the company the further insulated the management is and so the more likely for stuff like that to occur.

But to categorically say this about any corporation is nonsense.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#258

Post by c0nfused »

dstola wrote: post #214
evanagon wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are financial incentives if their customers choose competing products because of safety concerns.

I dont think people will all of a sudden start ditching cheap flights just to avoid the max or Boeing. Airline industry is extremely price sensitive from a consumer perspective, and for people to potentially sacrifice hundreds of dollars of savings would be a non sequitur. For example, if airline A flies MAX and has a ticket for 200 and another airline B has the same route for 400 on A320, most people I know would st…

The assumption here is that the risk is equal. Given that prior to the grounding travel Sites were implementing "don't fly with Max" features, the perception is that the rusk is much higher.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#260

Post by jacquesm »

hef19898 wrote: post #57
hu3 wrote: post #2

A slap in the face to the comments that were dismissing concerns as overreactions and stating that 737-MAX would return to operation shortly. Not in EU at least.

As far as I know this is one of the rare few, read I can't recall one, occasions in which EASA didn't accept FAA certification. Usually it is cross- certification between the two. Things are getting interesting and not necessarily in a good way as cooperation is reduced. That it makes sense in this special case is only further proof.

The FAA would lead and the rest of the world would follow. This is now history.
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