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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#101

Post by ulfw »

alkonaut wrote: post #87
yaseer wrote: post #3

I'm curious to see how passengers will react to flying via 737-max. Will ticket prices be lowered to reflect the inevitable wariness of flying in one again?

I'll have no problem flying in one as soon as the relevant authorities deem it safe enough. If I don't trust relevant authorities on what is safe and what isn't - why would I trust them when they say the next plane is safe? Also, since you can't know which flights are using which planes (usually), many carriers use thes planes interchangably with non-MAX (737-800s), and you can't use the choice of plane as a reason t…

The same "authorities" who told you before they were safe to fly?

You have so much believe in authorities that even if proven they didn't do their job, you still trust in them with your life?

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#102

Post by notahacker »

raverbashing wrote: post #72
philjohn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an interesting Mentour Pilot about this, essentially the lead time for a new airplane order is in the order of years, and there are other costs as well. If you've built your business around one specific type of jet it's costly to move to the competitors, which is why the "no type rating change" was so important for the max. Perhaps for future large orders this may be a boon for Airbus, but that would be in…

> If you've built your business around one specific type of jet it's costly to move to the competitors, which is why the "no type rating change" was so important for the max. Yes it is costly but you know what? It's BS Because the 737 line (nor the A320 nor any other line) is not going to last forever. (Especially wrt widebodies but that's another issue as I don't know if the A330Neo and the 777X have the same type a…

Just because they'll have to fly two types eventually doesn't mean they want to spend on making the switch now, especially not with an airframe that is an incremental improvement in fuel economy. (Not to mention that other OEM offerings suddenly look a lot more viable for operators wanting newer generation narrowbodies if they're forced to change type certificates regardless)

Genuinely new types that might offer a step change in operating economics that's worth all the hassle carry the risk of more aircraft programme delays and early operational issues anyway.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#103

Post by anoncake »

mikejb wrote: post #78
hef19898 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know this is one of the rare few, read I can't recall one, occasions in which EASA didn't accept FAA certification. Usually it is cross- certification between the two. Things are getting interesting and not necessarily in a good way as cooperation is reduced. That it makes sense in this special case is only further proof.

I think EASA doesn't trust the FAA here because the FAA had less involvement in the original certification than some are comfortable with. So rather that asking the FAA to certify the entire plane and maybe risk a similar procedure (Boeing self-certifies most of it), they'll do it themselves. What I'm curious is whether EASA has similar certification shortcu... optimizations for Airbus.

I hope they don't. But Boeing not being trustworthy does not mean that Airbus isn't.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#104

Post by fmajid »

taneq wrote: post #80
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

I must admit, every time I've flown recently on a 737 I've nervously checked the information card to check the exact model. I think all of our local airlines run 737-800s though.

No reason to be nervous, all 737 MAX are grounded worldwide.

I doubt they will be certified to fly without adding the triple redundant AOA sensors the A320neo has and that should have been included from the very beginning. If the FAA certified the 737 MAX without a mandatory upgrade (doubtful, given the glare of publicity), then yes, I'd be worried.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#105

Post by ulfw »

marsRoverDev wrote: post #6
yaseer wrote: post #3

I'm curious to see how passengers will react to flying via 737-max. Will ticket prices be lowered to reflect the inevitable wariness of flying in one again?

Passengers as a whole don't have any idea what is going on and have the memory of an amnesiac goldfish. They also don't have the ability to differentiate between planes in general, so this is probably just as likely to affect their perceptions of the A320.

How do you know this is true?

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#106

Post by village-idiot »

mikejb wrote: post #78
hef19898 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know this is one of the rare few, read I can't recall one, occasions in which EASA didn't accept FAA certification. Usually it is cross- certification between the two. Things are getting interesting and not necessarily in a good way as cooperation is reduced. That it makes sense in this special case is only further proof.

I think EASA doesn't trust the FAA here because the FAA had less involvement in the original certification than some are comfortable with. So rather that asking the FAA to certify the entire plane and maybe risk a similar procedure (Boeing self-certifies most of it), they'll do it themselves. What I'm curious is whether EASA has similar certification shortcu... optimizations for Airbus.

It’s worse than that, the FAA has begun to have an attitude that keeping Boeing’s profits up is important, as managers within the FAA constantly pushed to delegate certification authority to Boeing itself.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#107

Post by ulfw »

Angostura wrote: post #33
yaseer wrote: post #3

I'm curious to see how passengers will react to flying via 737-max. Will ticket prices be lowered to reflect the inevitable wariness of flying in one again?

I'm not sure I've ever been told what type of plane I'm flying in when I book - are you typically told?

Nobody is being 'told'. But every booking system I've ever used, whether it's airline-direct or an agreggator shows aircraft model.

Flightaware and others show it too if you just search for the flight number

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#108

Post by anoncake »

raverbashing wrote: post #72
philjohn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an interesting Mentour Pilot about this, essentially the lead time for a new airplane order is in the order of years, and there are other costs as well. If you've built your business around one specific type of jet it's costly to move to the competitors, which is why the "no type rating change" was so important for the max. Perhaps for future large orders this may be a boon for Airbus, but that would be in…

> If you've built your business around one specific type of jet it's costly to move to the competitors, which is why the "no type rating change" was so important for the max. Yes it is costly but you know what? It's BS Because the 737 line (nor the A320 nor any other line) is not going to last forever. (Especially wrt widebodies but that's another issue as I don't know if the A330Neo and the 777X have the same type a…

A330, A340 and A350 have the same type so the A330Neo almost certainly does.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#109

Post by ubermonkey »

radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

I think you're absolutely right. The approach on the MAX is horrifying.

But airplane tech moves kind of slowly, no? Non-MAX 737s can't really change, and so are as safe today as they were 6 month or 6 years ago. The MAX debacle makes me SUPER SUPER leery of any new airframe, though.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#110

Post by ulfw »

ddalex wrote: post #100
ulfw wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to extend the plane and make it an A320/738-8 sized A220-500!

Make it a double decker single-aisle 2/3 seat split and name it A280.

Love it ;) Upper deck is a business 1/1
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