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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#61

Post by nocturnial »

MobileVet wrote: post #13

Good. Hold them accountable and make sure that this kind of thing doesn’t happen again. Although a ‘same plane’ cert was a good goal, they should have made sure it was truly accurate instead of bending the case to make it so. This may be as close to an ‘open and shut’ case for corporate gross negligence as we will find in quite a while (at least I hope so). I would hate to see them go under but it should be clear tha…

And how are they going to be held accountable?

They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company. Maybe not everyone signed, but then it's about how much they can pay their lawyers.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#62

Post by philjohn »

simion314 wrote: post #49
philjohn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an interesting Mentour Pilot about this, essentially the lead time for a new airplane order is in the order of years, and there are other costs as well. If you've built your business around one specific type of jet it's costly to move to the competitors, which is why the "no type rating change" was so important for the max. Perhaps for future large orders this may be a boon for Airbus, but that would be in…

You still have the FAA and related regulations issues, this kind of unsafe behavior should have been caught early. Is FAA regulating other companies and products? those also would need investigated

Most definitely - and the way that FAA essentially outsources the approval back to the manufacturer is something that needs to change ... but is there the will in the Senate and White House to spend more on the FAA?

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#63

Post by ulfw »

wycy wrote: post #54
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

I would be extremely hesitant to ever fly on a 737 MAX again because, even when MCAS is fixed, software is being used to fix a fundamental physics problem. I'd fly on other Boeing planes without worry, though.

The fix for the 787s Lithium battery problems wasn't a whole lot better. Remember those exploding left and right and the 787 fleet grounded?

The fix wasn't to reengineer the large amount of electrical systems, lack of bleed air or use of different batteries.

The fix was to put them in a stronger container with a hole in it so they can vent outside when they inevitably blow up again.

That has worked well. So far.

Kind of - https://aeronauticsonline.com/united-787-battery-failure-pro...

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#64

Post by foldr »

wycy wrote: post #54
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

I would be extremely hesitant to ever fly on a 737 MAX again because, even when MCAS is fixed, software is being used to fix a fundamental physics problem. I'd fly on other Boeing planes without worry, though.

This is not the case. The 737 MAX has different handling characteristics to a regular 737, but there is nothing inherently unsafe about those handling characteristics. The purpose of MCAS was just to prevent the need for pilots to recertify by masking the difference.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#65

Post by s_dev »

radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

Flying -- even accounting for all the 737 Max crashes is still statistically by far the safest form of travel per unit of distance travelled -- the 737 Max is a blip just like 9/11.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#66

Post by simion314 »

philjohn wrote: post #62
simion314 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have the FAA and related regulations issues, this kind of unsafe behavior should have been caught early. Is FAA regulating other companies and products? those also would need investigated

Most definitely - and the way that FAA essentially outsources the approval back to the manufacturer is something that needs to change ... but is there the will in the Senate and White House to spend more on the FAA?

From what I read the FAA people were paid by Boeing in the past but they were reporting to FAA, it makes sense , you want your plane,drone other device certified you pay the expenses of the engineers that will do the checks, there should be no need to pay them with public money.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#67

Post by bilbo0s »

ulfw wrote: post #43

Good. Which it should have done and should from now on do for all 'self-certified' Boeing airplanes.

It still kills me that they let Boeing 'self-certify' their own airplanes.

I had a diagnostic medical imaging startup. You can't even imagine the pain the FDA inflicted on our bottom line before they would give an OK on anything. But the FAA is out there just taking the word of some company's engineers that "Yeah. We're good."?

I guess I just thought that all of the regulation, was like it was in the healthcare field. Guess not.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#68

Post by ulfw »

Aromasin wrote: post #5
hu3 wrote: post #2

A slap in the face to the comments that were dismissing concerns as overreactions and stating that 737-MAX would return to operation shortly. Not in EU at least.

Things are certainly looking bullish for Airbus in the aftermath of this.

I wish Boeing would rather FINALLY do the right thing, take their billion dollar earnings and putting it into R&D to build a new, modern 2020s design aircraft into the sky for the next decades rather than it's umpteenth warm-up of their 1960s design.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#69

Post by sjg007 »

radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

They've had similar issues before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#70

Post by ulfw »

mimixco wrote: post #11
Aromasin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things are certainly looking bullish for Airbus in the aftermath of this.

And they just extended the range of the A220.

Time to extend the plane and make it an A320/738-8 sized A220-500!
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