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Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#181

Post by gmueckl »

xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

Fun fact: some German names (e.g. Strauß) change spelling when capitalized. The letter "ß" is a ligature that only exists as a lower case letter and has to be written as "SS" when capitalized.

Names are fun. I recently had dealings with a company that assumed in its employee roster that the last word entered in the name field was your last name (i.e. anything beyond the last space). One of my coworkers was from Spain and had a last name consisting of two words separated by a space. She was the very definition of a failure case for that system.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#182

Post by falsedan »

firethief wrote: post #50
falsedan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It disregards the cultural history of names to suit what’s easiest for Western Europeans to understand.

We're already writing it in the Roman alphabet, but using the associated punctuation would offend you?

im Disappointed in your bad faith reply more than anything. who care’s about punctuation

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#183

Post by jorams »

gmueckl wrote: post #181
xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

Fun fact: some German names (e.g. Strauß) change spelling when capitalized. The letter "ß" is a ligature that only exists as a lower case letter and has to be written as "SS" when capitalized. Names are fun. I recently had dealings with a company that assumed in its employee roster that the last word entered in the name field was your last name (i.e. anything beyond the last space). One of my coworkers was from Spain…

Note that there is now an official capital "ß", after being adopted as official in 2017. It has been in Unicode for longer. The situation is fairly complicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%E1%BA%9E

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#184

Post by aasasd »

sgustard wrote: post #164
xucheng wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this works well in writing and it is common practice in Eastern Asia. However, how about oral conversation? Sometimes, I am not sure what is the proper way to introduce my Chinese name in English conversations? If I put family name at first, it would confuse English speakers. If I put given name first, the sound of my name feels so weird to me as that is not what I heard outside English environments.

"Bond. James Bond" covers all the options.

“Please bring coffee for mister Jamesbond. So, dear Bond, how was your trip?”

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#185

Post by asutekku »

planteen wrote: post #139

Working with Japanese colleagues and customers, you calling everyone by their last name with the suffix "-san". In discussions even when the person is not present, Americans still say "Abe-san" since it is how you always address them. Is "-san" only supposed to be used when you are addressing the person? I'm unsure on the correct way to use it.

San could be translated into mr/ms and you drop it off pretty much only when you’re close enough with the person you’re describing. If you use just the last name it will sound “Oh yeah, i had meeting with Mikey” if you’re referring to person called Mike Miller. First name is usually only used by really close friends and lovers.

The other time is when you’re using some other suffix with them, eg. you refer to them by profession.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#186

Post by lqet »

devy wrote: post #156
xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

In a lot of U.S Government Forms, "LastName, FirstName" format is prevalent, and there should be no ambiguity without messing with the cases. Another interesting common practice is that, famous Chinese names are already last name first - e.g. Yao Ming.

> In a lot of U.S Government Forms, "LastName, FirstName" format is prevalent, and there should be no ambiguity without messing with the cases.

Same thing in Germany.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#187

Post by patio11 »

snthd wrote: post #60

I'd love to see names always included once in their native script. >Foreign Minister 河野 太郎 (Kōno Tarō) said Tuesday he plans to ask overseas media outlets to write Japanese names with the family name first, as is customary in the country. Implicitly that would be a declaration that the English isn't authoritative.

I like that Wikipedia does this regarding people and titled works of art, at least heading their own articles. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar%C5%8D_K%C5%8Dno

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#189

Post by 4bpp »

stordoff wrote: post #5

What I find interesting is that there are exceptions to the current practice in English. Yoko Taro (family name: Yoko) is known widely as Yoko Taro, yet most other Japanese game developers are known as GivenName FamilyName (in English). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoko_Taro

I always was under the impression that a good portion of the news outlets that cite his name in the native order do so because they are fundamentally confused about what part of it is the first name and what part is the family name, which might be because the surname (Yokō, with a long second o) looks like a well-known even in the West female first name (Yōko, with a long first o, cf. John Lennon's wife) in the standard romanisation that neither uses macrons nor mirrors the native orthography (which would give Yokou vs. Youko). See all the instances of him being referred to as "Taro" (i.e. what is actually his first name):

[1] https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-04-13-yoko-taro-...

[2] https://www.wired.com/story/yoko-taro-nier-automata/

etc.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#190

Post by patio11 »

planteen wrote: post #139

Working with Japanese colleagues and customers, you calling everyone by their last name with the suffix "-san". In discussions even when the person is not present, Americans still say "Abe-san" since it is how you always address them. Is "-san" only supposed to be used when you are addressing the person? I'm unsure on the correct way to use it.

You should -san the outgroup (including when speaking about them in the 3rd person); you should not -san the ingroup. Whether someone is outgroup or ingroup depends on who you're talking to and can change.

There are other options as well.

In general, Americans who are rubbing up against Japanese people in a not-specifically-Japanese context get lots of leeway on this question. (One has to be good if one works as a full-time employee of a traditionally managed Japanese corporation; if one is entertaining a delegation from Japan at a US event, one gets a lot of kudos for trying.)

Note also that there are some people with preferences here, including some preferences which aren't necessarily socially normative.

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