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Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

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Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#211

Post by JohnFen »

bwb wrote: post #182
JohnFen wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the crux of this issue is what is or is not "my" data. I think that any data that is generated as a result of my actions, or by machines that I own, is my data for all intents and purposes. I understand that you disagree with that. That's entirely fair, and I'm not trying to change your thinking on this. What I'm trying to understand is on what basis you are deciding what is or is not my data.

Yep, we disagree on this :). Sure, I'll take a stab at that. Data is data, it doesn't belong to someone just because they played a role in creating it. You don't care about the water company tracking your water usage or knowing how often you flush your toilet is my guess. Yet that is data you are creating. If you found out the water company was checking your dropping for drug usage and selling that to the government…

> You don't care about the water company tracking your water usage or knowing how often you flush your toilet is my guess.

I do care, actually. I consent to the water company tracking how much water I use over the billing period, because they need to do that to bill me. I do not consent to any data collection or use beyond that.

> I would argue the intent of data is what matters and this discussion is really about.

I haven't even gotten to the point where intent matters, personally. I'm still stuck on consent. This is the hard line for me. Tell me what you want to do with my data, and if I agree with that use (and trust that you aren't lying and won't change your mind in the future) then I'll give consent.

> I want to see data used for improving society

We agree on this, but I'm not willing to be "thrown to the wolves" to accomplish it.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#212

Post by bwb »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #209
bwb wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it is my place, I am a member of this society and we live in a Democracy. I get my views, you get yours, lets talk about it and think about it and slowly over 50 years some stuff will get hammered out :) And, as I said, I am not convinced that all data you interact with is yours. I think data is data and it has attributes that should go other places whether you want it too or not. History and fiction are great t…

It's your opinion, not place I'd say. Minority rights cannot be ethically eliminated by a majority vote. To be honest, while I care about privacy in general, am not concerned about every little datum myself. In a healthy reality companies and governments would give us lots of options and control, let us opt-in. But that never happens does it? They'd prefer you'd not even be aware it's happening. Only when shamed in t…

Not sure I follow, as I do have a say in this as do you and every other person in this country :). To argue someone doesn't have to say is a tad weird.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#213

Post by sib »

ghaff wrote: post #144
mixmastamyk wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Siri and location services are the first things I turn off.

You're still trusting Apple to actually turn them off. I have zero reason to doubt Apple on this. However, I also have zero reason to think Alexa is transmitting even if it hasn't been woken up with the wake word.

Echo devices (with Alexa) also have explicit mic mute buttons, plus a UI that indicates when the mics are off, which my phone does not.

(And yes, you have to trust that Amazon's devices are behaving according to spec and to what Amazon has said...)

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#214

Post by mixmastamyk »

14 wrote: post #133
mixmastamyk wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Siri and location services are the first things I turn off.

Same. Also Cortana or any other thing like it which is really sad seeing how useful they could be. To have to choose convenience or privacy sucks. I wish there was a middle ground. I would happily pay for a voice assistant that lives on my machine and respects my privacy.

Agreed, but to be honest I probably wouldn't use them even without the privacy implications. Would rather do a few taps than carefully craft a sentence that might not be understood.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#215

Post by sib »

nostalgk wrote: post #27
cheerlessbog wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as creepy as giving a big corporation access to microphones around your house. It astounds me that much of America has done exactly that.

Is there evidence that the big name home devices like Google Home and Amazon Echo actually collect your speech? I was under the impression it was just a small ARM board that uses recognition to execute commands. My mom has a Dot, but I am clueless.

Yes - it's been very clearly communicated since the launch of the Echo in 2014 that the speech goes to the cloud after the wake word is detected (which happens on device).

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#216

Post by JohnFen »

bwb wrote: post #184
JohnFen wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like I said, you are not being forced I don't know why you say this, though, when you are arguing that I should be. > because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership. In the absence of a compelling reason otherwise, I demand such ownership.

I just don't get why you think that data is yours. I don't see that data as anyway owned by you, you might have rights to aspects of it, but in no way can you demand ownership over something you don't own.

> I just don't get why you think that data is yours.

Because it is data about me that I'm generating personally, on my own personal equipment. That data is literally nobody else's business unless I choose to share it.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#217

Post by JohnFen »

zaroth wrote: post #206
JohnFen wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in my opinion. Not to me. That data collection is the #1 reason why I would never consider buying a Tesla (and, increasingly, other new cars as well.)

There’s a button in the UI to switch off AutoPilot data collection with no loss of functionality. When you first get the car and enroll I believe they prompt you then as well. (Opt-in!) [1] You can also email Tesla and tell them you want to go dark in which case they shutdown the LTE connection entirely. Then you have to go get firmware updates at the dealer and of course online traffic aware maps, and streaming radi…

> switch off AutoPilot data collection

Is that the only data collection a Tesla engages in?

> You can also email Tesla and tell them you want to go dark in which case they shutdown the LTE connection entirely.

But how can I be sure that they've done so? And how can I be sure they wouldn't turn it back on at some point in the future?

> of course online traffic aware maps, and streaming radio won’t work.

That is actually fine by me, as I wouldn't be using those things anyway.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#218

Post by ivanhoe »

js2 wrote: post #15

> Modern cars collect as much as 25 gigabytes of data per hour. Links to this McKinsey study as a source: https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/... Which says: > Today’s car has the computing power of 20 personal computers, features about 100 million lines of programming code, and processes up to 25 gigabytes of data an hour. McKinsey doesn't cite any sources. But more importantly, processing 25…

I think it's a bit misleading statistic, as most of that data being processes are probably just all kinds of sensors and diagnostic readings, so pretty dull stuff.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#219

Post by mixmastamyk »

bwb wrote: post #212
mixmastamyk wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's your opinion, not place I'd say. Minority rights cannot be ethically eliminated by a majority vote. To be honest, while I care about privacy in general, am not concerned about every little datum myself. In a healthy reality companies and governments would give us lots of options and control, let us opt-in. But that never happens does it? They'd prefer you'd not even be aware it's happening. Only when shamed in t…

Not sure I follow, as I do have a say in this as do you and every other person in this country :). To argue someone doesn't have to say is a tad weird.

Maybe you misread it? Otherwise is a straw-man.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#220

Post by the_pwner224 »

zaroth wrote: post #205
protomyth wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. and to make statements to the press during an investigation to blame you for the accident. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-crash/u-s-safety-ag...

As well they should. Until the steering whee is removed, it’s always the driver’s responsibility to operate the vehicle.

Tesla has repeatedly made misleading statements about the ability of their systems, and has intentionally caused these crashes.

It is a very well known fact among people working in these fields that a half automated system is a disaster waiting to strike. Human-only controls require the driver to stay focused. Invisible enhancements (power steering) and enhancements used in emergency situations (collision avoidance braking) are just that - enhancements. Fully automated systems also work well. Half-automated systems like Tesla's, where the computer works 99% of the time, cause operators to get distracted - nobody concentrate on watching paint dry for hours on end - and then when the system fails everyone dies in a giant flaming fireball.

One can make excuses about how the exaggerated claims about the system's abilities were made by the marketing department (not engineering) or that it says in the manual to stay focused on driving the vehicle. But ultimately it's all BS. Because this:

> it’s always the driver’s responsibility to operate the vehicle.

Should have been this:

> it's always the manufacturer's responsibility to make a vehicle that can be safely operate.

And Teslas cannot be safely operated by any human when autopilot is on. There are plenty of people at Tesla that know this. And no, just because marketing went on a giant campaign to show everyone how Teslas drive themselves, does not mean that the organization as a whole is not responsible for those actions and for reining it in.

This is no different than Boeing repeatedly misleading the public and regulators about the safety of their planes over the span of many decades in order to shave a few dollars here and there on R&D/manufacturing costs. Boeing is as responsible for those deaths as Tesla is for the ones caused by Autopilot.

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