Linux distros without systemd • Hacker News Board

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#141

Post by JohnFen » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

markstos wrote: post #53

I read everything I could find on systemd to form my own opinion. I used FreeBSD for a decade and have many years of Ubuntu/upstart experience after that. Based on my experience and all the anti-systemd posts online, I expected to dislike it. But on it's merits I really like the consistency it brings to the "system layer" of the OS. I find it's shame when developers skip over systemd for consideration, adding extra l…

> On the other hand, I do support diversity of software and am glad to see some other options still being promoted and used.

Then you should not be wanting to see applications including a hard dependency to systemD.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#142

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

darkpuma wrote: post #116

Klathmon wrote: post #57

This list is missing a linux-ey system which doesn't use Systemd that is growing in popularity! WSL! WSL somewhat annoyingly has a custom/proprietary init system. Partially due to it's "interesting" integration with windows, and partially because it's not even really a full linux system yet. I'm curious if with the switch to WSL2 where they will begin shipping a full linux kernel if systemd will be included or will t…

> WSL I think you mean GNU/Windows, or as I've taken to calling it, GNU Plus Windows. (Seriously though, the WSL name is deceptive because it doesn't actually contain any Linux code. There is no Linux in "Windows Subsystem for Linux" )

[deleted]

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#143

Post by dmitryminkovsky » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #138

dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a result, mostly nobody ever had a problem with it. The number of broken init scripts I have encountered throughout the years, that went unfixed for months if not years, stand in stark contrast to this statement. And I’m talking packages like uWSGI on Ubuntu 14.04! This is exactly why I gravitated immediately to systemd. The idea that init scripts actually worked and when they didn’t were easily fixable is not t…

> The people who prefer initv are the people who enjoy digging in other people’s (untestable) Bash scripts This is demonstrably untrue. I strongly prefer SysV (which is not to say I think SysV is wonderful or anything) over systemD for a number of architectural and functional reasons. But I do not enjoy digging into other people's init scripts. Fortunately, I rarely have to do that. I think the last time I had a prob…

You're right. Bad generalization. Sentence removed, but archived in your comment.

Out of curiosity, what distros do you use that you've had such a good run with init scripts?

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#144

Post by JdeBP » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

psadauskas wrote: post #122

sjwright wrote: post #10

One of the better videos on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AeWu1fZ7bY BSDCan 2018—Benno Rice: The Tragedy of systemd "systemd is, to put it mildly, controversial. Depending on who you ask it's either a complete violation of the UNIX philosophy, a bloated pile of bugs, a complete violation of the elegant simplicity it replaced or, it most cases, some or all of the above. So why have so many Linux distr…

I watched this a few weeks ago as well, and it is a very good, even-handed overview of systemd. He talks about the history and other tools that came before, like Apple's `launchd` and Ubuntu's `upstart`. He also talks about the actual problems with it, rather than the FUD hysteria (and also explains why some of them are FUD). He's from the BSD world, so his POV is as an (mostly) outsider.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#145

Post by eropple » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

fabiomaia wrote: post #71

markstos wrote: post #53

I read everything I could find on systemd to form my own opinion. I used FreeBSD for a decade and have many years of Ubuntu/upstart experience after that. Based on my experience and all the anti-systemd posts online, I expected to dislike it. But on it's merits I really like the consistency it brings to the "system layer" of the OS. I find it's shame when developers skip over systemd for consideration, adding extra l…

Interesting. So what use cases is Docker good for? Why is it so popular if systemd suffices?

Docker provides some more approachable tooling on top and (IMO, at least) its networking is more straightforward for "developer-y" use cases.

I quite like systemd-nspawn too, though.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#146

Post by darkpuma » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

alanfranz wrote: post #126

darkpuma wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WSL I think you mean GNU/Windows, or as I've taken to calling it, GNU Plus Windows. (Seriously though, the WSL name is deceptive because it doesn't actually contain any Linux code. There is no Linux in "Windows Subsystem for Linux" )

WSL 2.0 contains a full Linux kernel.

Yeah but as far as I can tell that doesn't actually exist yet, and isn't scheduled to be available until the end of next month. (Existing inside Microsoft but not publicly is "does not exist" as far as I'm concerned, because I remember all kinds of legendary stuff Microsoft has apparently made but never released.)

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#147

Post by JohnFen » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #83

kevin_b_er wrote: post #31

Most arguments about systemd will devolve into a Motte and Bailey argument. The problems with systemd are all the stuff tacked on that are mandatory, but if you criticize them you'll get people switching to try to put words into your mouth about how the init replacement is good/bad. The Motte is all the shovelware attached to systemd that is nearly impossible to detatch and the Bailey is the init replacement.

The “shovelware” is what makes it useful.

In my opinion, as an init script replacement, systemD is almost a great thing. Including everything else is what makes it a terrible thing.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#148

Post by addicted » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

fabiomaia wrote: post #71

markstos wrote: post #53

I read everything I could find on systemd to form my own opinion. I used FreeBSD for a decade and have many years of Ubuntu/upstart experience after that. Based on my experience and all the anti-systemd posts online, I expected to dislike it. But on it's merits I really like the consistency it brings to the "system layer" of the OS. I find it's shame when developers skip over systemd for consideration, adding extra l…

Interesting. So what use cases is Docker good for? Why is it so popular if systemd suffices?

Cross platform stuff? Docker allows you to do many things on Windows and Linux.

I’m not arguing that this is worth the overhead, or even a useful feature in practice (most companies and products tend to pick one environment and stick to it), but one that comes to mind that systemd would likely never have.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#149

Post by JohnFen » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #42

enriquto wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice that nobody complains about the existence of systemd, but about the enormous and shady pressures that distros had (particulary debian) to adopt it as standard. Nowadays, the complain is mostly about the systemd monoculture.

> systemd monoculture As someone who really wanted the BSDs to get more credit ~20 years back, and spent a fair amount of time on various commercial Unixes as well, I find that phrase rather amusing. Historically poor standardization of the userland aside, GNU/Linux is the poster child for monoculture in Unix, and has left a whole lot of dead or dying software in its wake.

I've decided to migrate my Linux boxen to BSD (this is a long-haul project that will take me a year or more, I estimate). In part because systemD itself really made me aware of the issue that you're raising.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#150

Post by mar77i » Mon, May 20, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

telmich wrote: post #72

microtonal wrote: post #14

Guix is missing, which uses GNU Sheperd, which is in Scheme: https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/ That said, to me systemd has been a large improvement. Maybe it has its problems, but at least there is consistency in handling services and logs between Linux distributions, which is a big improvement over a bunch of homegrown sysvinit derivatives, Upstart, and homegrown non-sysvinit scripts.

Just added as as-good-as-we-could to the website - do you have any experiences in using it?

Guix is a weird little behemoth of a distribution, that allows you to install different versions of different packages at the same time which then builds your effective file system on the fly. That being said, as mad as this sounds, I've heard people are having a lot of fun with it too, so apparently it's also manageable.

Guix is for you if you want to run old software on a discontinued software stack simultaneously with a modern system.