Linux distros without systemd • Hacker News Board

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#41

Post by peterwwillis » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

The most recent reason I found to hate systemd was it replaced my system DNS resolver with its own (thus requiring me to modify /etc/systemd/resolved.conf, and doing the daemon-reload-service-restart-hokey-pokey, to get a host to function on a network+VPN like it did before). The only reason systemd has its own resolver is they wanted extra DNS functionality. Did I ask for these features? Did I want a new resolver? No. But that's the whole idea behind systemd. A few devs shoving complex features down everyone's throats, just because they felt like it. Operating system fascism.

But I don't think we should be angry at systemd developers; they can develop whatever they want. I'm mostly angry at the distributions who opted in to their crap. Systemd has not made my life easier, but it has often made it harder, and the only reason that happened was because a distro allowed it.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#42

Post by bunderbunder » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #16

sjwright wrote: post #8

I get no end of bemusement from open source advocates that think it makes any kind of rational sense to campaign against an open source project. THIS IS ALL OPEN SOURCE. Freedom and choice is the whole point, isn't it? If you prefer an alternative or forebear to systemd, that is great. Use it. Advocate for the system you prefer. Convince people that the choice you have made is better. Meanwhile the vast majority of d…

Notice that nobody complains about the existence of systemd, but about the enormous and shady pressures that distros had (particulary debian) to adopt it as standard. Nowadays, the complain is mostly about the systemd monoculture.

> systemd monoculture

As someone who really wanted the BSDs to get more credit ~20 years back, and spent a fair amount of time on various commercial Unixes as well, I find that phrase rather amusing. Historically poor standardization of the userland aside, GNU/Linux is the poster child for monoculture in Unix, and has left a whole lot of dead or dying software in its wake.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#43

Post by markstos » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:19 PM UTC

telmich wrote: post #29

PlutoIsAPlanet wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High rate? Compared to the Linux kernel, systemd's CVE rate is very low.

Do you have a source for it?

In 2017, the Linux Kernel had over 450 CVEs, while systemd had 5.

https://www.cvedetails.com/product/47/Linux-Linux-Kernel.htm... https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-7971...

So far in 2019, the gap has narrowed: "only" 45 CVEs so far for the Linux kernel, and 7 for systemd.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#44

Post by telmich » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #40

I do find it funny that people crap all over systemd, but don't seem to have a huge problem with launchd, despite the fact that systemd was almost a direct port of it. Personally, while I do think that systemd's scope might have been a bit too ambitious, I do find it easier than something like Upstart

I also think upstart was a bit nuts... but how do you think about openrc vs systemd?

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#45

Post by adictator » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

We absolutely love Alpine, but it's been hard to integrate with other systems because of it using musl. For instance, our dns resolvers do not work properly & our monitoring solution is incompatible with musl.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#46

Post by curt15 » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

Don't Google's servers also run a custom systemd-less Debian derivative? https://www.usenix.org/node/177348

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#47

Post by scurvy » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

I don't like it when my process init and logging system also tries to manage my volume mounts. If I unmount a device, I don't want systemd going behind my back and remounting it for me.

It's non standard behavior changes like this that drive systemd hate.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#48

Post by telmich » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #38

Whatitat90 wrote: post #4

SystemD definitely spurred some controversies years ago but is it that bad in 2019? All major distros adopted it and even some that are listed there as "no systemd" in reality just give you choice (e.g. Gentoo). I'd gladly hear the opinion of distro maintainers why did they switch to SystemD if it's as bad as it looks like in people's perception.

yes it's still that bad, my previously reliable systems are now non-deterministic and break randomly every few days I discover some new bit of non-determinism: - systems getting stuck for long periods at startup or reboot with with some useless text like "Waiting for user session to shutdown" - reboots never completing at all (getting completely wedged shutting down) - jobs starting in weird orders, like crond starti…

I have the same getting stuck problems plus resolving issues as soon as systemd-resolved is in the game

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#49

Post by holstvoogd » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

I recommend watching this to give you some perspective on the SystemD hate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

I too was furious about the existence of systemd, but now I realize that was mostly because I don't want new things and consider many new things to be bad because they are new and there have been a few 'bad apples' in my personal experience

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#50

Post by thedaemon » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

AntiX Linux is my current favorite which happens to be systemd free and runs with lighter weight DEs. It takes up only about 500MB of RAM sitting still, so pretty great for older systems and laptops.