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60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

fastcompany.com

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Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#31

Post by weberc2 »

jacquesm wrote: post #14
0x262d wrote: post #4

this is absurd. these people are reactionaries. they should know that false accusations almost never happen and if they act in good faith they'll be fine. instead they're going to professionally penalize women. classic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape For something as serious as rape it's 2% to 10%, for something less serious it would likely be higher.

According to that page, it's only 2-10% of cases that police were able to determine that no crime had been committed. Given how difficult it is to disprove a sexual assault, the number of false accusations must be must higher. Consider also that those were just the cases that the accuser felt so confident in their ability to frame their victim that they reported it to the police instead of merely slandering their target to HR or via social media or similar.

Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#32

Post by pwinnski »

jacquesm wrote: post #14
0x262d wrote: post #4

this is absurd. these people are reactionaries. they should know that false accusations almost never happen and if they act in good faith they'll be fine. instead they're going to professionally penalize women. classic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape For something as serious as rape it's 2% to 10%, for something less serious it would likely be higher.

What's the percentage of accusations in the workplace that turn out to be unsubstantiated? And what percentage of those result in any consequence for the reportee rather than the reporter?

Most workplaces don't feature many accusations of rape, real or false, so a 2% rate for all of life doesn't seem particularly relevant.

Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#33

Post by mcphage »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #24
atomical wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The words "Bad faith" are such a cop out lately. Everyone is using it because they think it is a clear way to win an argument fast. What do you mean when using it?

In this case I think it's appropriate. There's been a 32% increase in this attitude since last year. Do you really think the author of the article believes that 32% more men can't control themselves around women than last year?

> Do you really think the author of the article believes that 32% more men can't control themselves around women than last year?

I could believe that 32% more men realize that their inability (or disinterest) in controlling themselves around women might actually have consequences.

Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#34

Post by weberc2 »

atomical wrote: post #20
weberc2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling it merely "uncharitable" and not "overtly bad faith" is a very charitable interpretation on your part. :)

The words "Bad faith" are such a cop out lately. Everyone is using it because they think it is a clear way to win an argument fast. What do you mean when using it?

I agree it's overused and abused, but this is pretty straightforward. The author is attributing the rise to "men can't control themselves" instead of the obvious "men are afraid of false accusations". Even if the latter is not a good reason to be uncomfortable, the article should address that point instead of the overt strawman.

Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#35

Post by erentz »

bjourne wrote: post #22
erentz wrote: post #2

Ugh. This is predictable in the age of guilty til proven innocent isn't it? When an accusation is enough to tank a career then yes people are going to feel the need to protect themselves by removing any possibility of that happening. And rather than trying to approach the problem constructively, the article takes a strong tone throughout that puts the blame on men: > That means the many, many women in this world who…

> Ugh. This is predictable in the age of guilty til proven innocent isn't it? When an accusation is enough to tank a career then yes people are going to feel the need to protect themselves by removing any possibility of that happening. When has one accusation been enough to tank a person's career? Do you have an example? Of one accusation - not several dozen accusations from several dozen parties spread out over a pe…

It sounds like your proposal would be to properly allay fears that unfounded accusations can be damaging and reassure men that women aren’t as sensitive as they may fear. Which accepts the premise of what I’ve said and concurs that this article perpetuates the problem.

The next thing is how do we do that not just in tech, but wider society since wider society influences such fears?

Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#36

Post by dghughes »

bjourne wrote: post #22
erentz wrote: post #2

Ugh. This is predictable in the age of guilty til proven innocent isn't it? When an accusation is enough to tank a career then yes people are going to feel the need to protect themselves by removing any possibility of that happening. And rather than trying to approach the problem constructively, the article takes a strong tone throughout that puts the blame on men: > That means the many, many women in this world who…

> Ugh. This is predictable in the age of guilty til proven innocent isn't it? When an accusation is enough to tank a career then yes people are going to feel the need to protect themselves by removing any possibility of that happening. When has one accusation been enough to tank a person's career? Do you have an example? Of one accusation - not several dozen accusations from several dozen parties spread out over a pe…

The two guys joked to themselves about dongles at a conference when a woman (not part of the conversation) took offense and tweeted about it in real time. The men were escorted out and both lost their jobs.

https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongle-joke-that-spirale...

And not quite related but somewhat. Here in Canada a man named Lorne Grabher has had a custom license plate GRABHER lost it due to a single complaint.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/grabher-licence-p...

Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#37

Post by cheesymuffin »

I think it's a little silly that humans are willing to progress against their nature and let women into the workforce on equal standing but not have any additional social rules enforced. Being progressive is more than opening the door and patting yourself on the back for it. No one cares that you voted Clinton if you still talk like you're in a 60s.

It seems like we want social change, but we don't want to accept the risk of ostracism that comes with it. We want to change everyone else.

Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#39

Post by viklove »

pwinnski wrote: post #29

These comments are already a toxic hellstew of nasty sexism couched in dispassionate pseudo-objective terms. HN reminds me regularly that the problem is even worse (at least in some corners of tech) than occasional links here suggest. If your response to an article is to double-down on sexism, you are very much part of the problem. For everyone else, working for and with women, or having women work for and with you,…

I find it ironic how your comment complaining about sexism is incredibly sexist

Re: 60% of male managers are “uncomfortable” working around women

#40

Post by the_jeremy »

elil17 wrote: post #27

I think if a male manager doesn’t feel comfortable having a one on one meeting with a female employee, so be it, but then he has to be consistent and not have one on one meetings with any of his employees. If a guys gonna watch his back at the expense of getting work done, he has to do so in a way that treats everyone equally

Why? It is not about equality, it is about risk mitigation. Regardless of your stance on the issue, it is far more likely a male manager will be falsely accused by a female employee than a male employee (it is also more likely he will be truthfully accused by a female than a male, but that fact should make females happier about having another person present in meetings).
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