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Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#131

Post by wincy »

tjpnz wrote: post #101
crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

I would say that genetics have a large part to play. A certain proportion of the population just isn't wired to think this way, I don't think it's strictly an intelligence thing either. Some tests have been devised that do predict with some certainty which group a particular person belongs in but these are controversial - and it's understandable why. The saddest part is dealing with those who weren't cut out to do th…

I don’t know, I met a guy who is not a great dev but he makes bank, he migrates from job to job but gets compensated far better than he would at anything else. And the labor market is constrained by bodies in seats, he can hack out some pretty bad code and get himself stuck, but in a long period of time he’ll eventually pester enough people for enough obvious questions that he figures out the solution.

For him it seems way better than the alternatives, really. Dev work pays really well.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#132

Post by rayiner »

hiram112 wrote: post #123
rayiner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The explosion in cost of living in places like SF has severely distorted peoples’ views of what is a reasonable salary in the vast majority of the country. $40k/year is a good salary almost anywhere in the US. It’s above the median starting salary for college graduates. For a couple, that’s probably $60,000-70,000 in household income. In my county you can get a 3BR house in a good school district for $200-230k, which…

Loudoun county or Maryland somewhere?

Anne Arundel. VA is obscenely expensive.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#133

Post by rayiner »

jstewartmobile wrote: post #113
rayiner wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said $60-70k, the idea being that the person making $40k is married to someone making $30k. Nonetheless, $60k is 24% of gross income is still well within the recommended affordability range, and well within the 31% lenders will qualify you to borrow. Even if one person is on unemployment (in Maryland it pays half salary for 6 months), that’s 32% of income. Tight, but on average that should last just a few months.

Even if we pop it back up to $70k--still too close if you ask me. Shit happens. Most people would be better off economizing on the house a little, and locking those savings in, rather than micro-managing nickel-and-dime expenses. What the lenders will do is neither here nor there--given that most will do just about anything for a short-term buck. We all saw how that movie ends back in 2008. I just happened to see it…

A $230,000 house on a $60-70k income is giving yourself more wiggle room. At $60k, you could qualify for something closer to a $300,000 house. That’s what most people do—yet the default rate for prime borrowers stayed below 5% even in 2008 (and is around 1-2% typically).

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#134

Post by crankylinuxuser »

kaaaal wrote: post #94
aj-4 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who doesn't have food clothing and shelter in the US?

Not many, but enough to point at and hyperbolically claim that things are not good in the US.

Not at all true. If you're on the coasts or big cities, things are better. When you navigate away from those loci, things get a lot worse, quick.

Homeless in my city has grown by 200% in the last 4 years. We regularly have new homeless show up in Bloomington, IN because we try to care for and support getting out of poverty and homelessness... However this is exacerbated by communities all around shipping us their homeless. Greyhound Therapy is a thing, and it happens more than you think.

The homeless problem is getting worse, by far. Wages have stagnated, rents inexorably go up, and overall cost of living goes up as well. Sure, some company makes more money, but the result too is people move. Sometimes it's to a different apartment, and sometimes it's to Main St. The big problem why "we" don't see it are the city, municipal, and state governments don't want to make a count of it. It's embarrassing - and the thought is 'If we don't count it, they'll go away'.

We in IT have been relatively immune, but I too suspect that will go by the wayside in the coming decades with the factorization and commodification of programming and IT administration.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#135

Post by wincy »

threatofrain wrote: post #124
Mirioron wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't think that's really true in this day and age when it comes to programming. All the information to learn programming is out there. You have direct access to all of the lectures and materials of university courses.

I speculate there are more intelligent people than people with strong psychologies (those who are committed to learning), but by filtering for the intersection you're throwing lots of industry advantage away. I also say that the problem people are bothered by is human suffering. Even if you don't like how meritocracy is conducted today, like maybe you feel that 50% of positions in society are not sufficiently merited…

I failed out of college multiple times. My life was bad and unstable and I had panic attack and depression. I also have difficulty visualizing future rewards. I have one of these “weak” psychologies.

I met my wife, who helped “smooth out” my moods, and went from someone who couldn’t hold down a job at Walmart to a software engineer making many multiples of what I did just five years ago.

Even with the stability it mostly allowed me to take adderall without horrible behavioral side effects like compulsive gambling.

You’re right though, for me I was basically forgotten and nobody cared at that point. It wasn’t until I hit rock bottom sleeping on my moms couch that things got better. I feel like I was pulled up out of a hell I didn’t know I could escape from.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#136

Post by wincy »

harryh wrote: post #79
jstewartmobile wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to guess. In most states, unless you're retired, the property tax is the property tax. I sold real estate in Alabama (with some of the lowest property taxes in the country) 15 years ago. Even back then, on $230k, you'd be looking at around $1500/mo at today's rates, ~$1500/yr property tax, ~$2000/yr homeowner's insurance. Unless a person is 100% OK with being a wage-slave, cracking a $21,500 nut every year--w…

For a 230k loan (which means zero down payment which is unusual) to be $1500/mo you're talking about 6.8% interest. Rates are not that high on a 30 year mortgage.

If you get a HUD loan and put under 10% down you’re going to get closer to $1500 a month payment due to PMI.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#137

Post by gexla »

nick_kline wrote: post #110
gexla wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great pay. I know a lot of developers in the Philippines who make around USD $300 / month.

$300 a month is astoundingly low. What can they be doing for that amount of money, I'm amazed the cost is living is so low. If they got remote jobs to first world countries they could make 30 times as much if they could do java or c++.

There's an agency here which employs developers for different sorts of client work. Some of them I talked to were doing Javsacript and others were .Net. The employer is Swedish.

Other employers are small businesses which have a need for a developer and pay the lowest they can get away with.

Cost of living is really low here. You can get cozy two room apartment for under $200 / month. There are a lot of "boarding houses" where you can get a room and a shared bathroom for $35 / month. A small studio apartment may be as cheap as $100 / month. Young adults here will often say with their family though unless they are working in a different city.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#139

Post by BurningFrog »

Buge wrote: post #104
wrong_variable wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Emigrating to California was comparatively a mild culture shock. Turns out I had more in common with muslim Pakistani software engineers than farm boys from half an hour outside my home town. Are you are Muslim ? If I dropped you in the middle of Pakistan I am pretty sure you would have nothing in common with most people in Pakistan.

>Are you are Muslim ? BurningFrog is not Muslim. BurningFrog was pointing out that religious difference between BurningFrog and BurningFrog's coworkers (muslim Pakistani software engineers). >If I dropped you in the middle of Pakistan I am pretty sure you would have nothing in common with most people in Pakistan. That's pretty much the point BurningFrog was making. BurningFrog has a lot of similarities with software…

Exactly.

To be fair, one reason I got along so well with people from every corner of the planet writing software in Silicon Valley was just that I had learned about strangers in the military.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#140

Post by csense »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

A friend's been telling me to read a controversial book called "The Bell Curve" about the genetic basis of intelligence.

The reason the book's controversial is that it builds a case that intelligence has a genetic basis, and some races are smarter (on average) than others (although there's tremendous individual variation, and environment / upbringing plays roles too).

If that's indeed the way the world actually is, would that be a truth our society could accept?

On the one hand, I'm no racist, nor do I aspire to ever be one. On the other hand, I want to say that I aspire to a proper scientific worldview, understanding the world according to evidence and reason. If I dismiss The Bell Curve's argument, am I being properly skeptical of unproven claims, or am I just going along with societal pressure and my own wish to live in a world where race really doesn't matter?

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