Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#111

Post by nitrogen » Mon, May 20, 2019, 5:16 AM UTC

mlevental wrote: post #38

marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

how can someone else "devalue" your profession? market forces decide the value of your profession. if you feel like your value is being diluted then I hate to break it to you but the truth is that you're not valuable anymore. you are welcome to upskill (in order to be able to deliver more value) or change careers. like I love people praising the maw of capital (startups rule the world yay!) and simultaneously inveigh…

A profession can be improperly devalued by disregarding or demeaning the values provided by that profession. For example, one could devalue the dentistry profession by convincing a bunch of people that cavities are a myth and sugar is good for you, or the medical profession by convincing people that getting infected with the measles is a good thing.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#112

Post by maxxxxx » Mon, May 20, 2019, 5:20 AM UTC

njepa wrote: post #77

crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

I will disagree with most of the comments and say that the barrier to entry in programming isn't abstract though or critical thinking but quirks, inconsistencies and obscurities. That is really why programming favors having an interest in it. Because you need to some extent be excited about banging your head against the wall, in one way or another. That is why very smart people with PhDs aren't necessarily good progr…

" Because you need to some extent be excited about banging your head against the wall, in one way or another. "

I think that's really important. Most good programmers are very persistent.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#113

Post by jstewartmobile » Mon, May 20, 2019, 5:26 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #93

jstewartmobile wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Original was " affordable for a family making $60k " Drop the fam back to $60k, and that " $3,000 a month for saving and other expenses " drops to $2167--and I would put special emphasis on "expenses": few hundred a month for vehicles, a few hundred for groceries, occasional co-pays (that can get pretty big as you get older and have more things wrong with you), emergency repairs, school clothes, etc. There will proba…

I said $60-70k, the idea being that the person making $40k is married to someone making $30k. Nonetheless, $60k is 24% of gross income is still well within the recommended affordability range, and well within the 31% lenders will qualify you to borrow. Even if one person is on unemployment (in Maryland it pays half salary for 6 months), that’s 32% of income. Tight, but on average that should last just a few months.

Even if we pop it back up to $70k--still too close if you ask me. Shit happens. Most people would be better off economizing on the house a little, and locking those savings in, rather than micro-managing nickel-and-dime expenses.

What the lenders will do is neither here nor there--given that most will do just about anything for a short-term buck. We all saw how that movie ends back in 2008. I just happened to see it over and over again.

What is so objectionable about telling people to give themselves a little more wiggle-room?

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#114

Post by nick_kline » Mon, May 20, 2019, 5:32 AM UTC

povertyworld wrote: post #55

crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

When I first got interested in tech it was called "being a geek". Now with the broification of tech, and the influx of people from cultures that optimize solely for income and prestige rather than passion, it seems to be forgotten that some people are just geeks and some (most) aren't.

I think plenty of people wanted to be in tech for more money in the past too. And there were those people who were just happy to be able to play with computers and happily surprised to be paid well for it. It's not a new thing.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#115

Post by dang » Mon, May 20, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

richdev wrote: post #103

killjoywashere wrote: post #76

> Training, mentoring and counseling people — often from disadvantaged backgrounds — is not a mass-production process. Yes, yes it is. It literally is. Maybe you need some additional sorting of raw materials in, maybe the machines (the teachers, the mentors) have a relatively low number of cycles in their lifespan (number of students they can teach), maybe there's more sorting on the output (just like chips are sorte…

This is a nonsense answer. Total BS.

Maybe so, but can you please not post like this to HN? We're trying for thoughtful conversation here, and that means being kind and responding substantively (or not at all), even when another comment is completely wrong.

If you'd read the site guidelines and take the spirit of HN to heart, we'd be grateful. We're trying to be less hostile and a bit more interesting than Internet Default, if you know what I mean.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#116

Post by Kalium » Mon, May 20, 2019, 5:51 AM UTC

jstewartmobile wrote: post #18

" Today, Mr. Davis, 27, is a cybersecurity specialist working on an incident response team at the company. He earns above $40,000, more than twice his salary in retail. " Isn't that like what people at Costco make for running a cash register and being friendly? And who do you think has more job security? edit: To be less coy about it, if you are any good at this stuff and are only making "above $40k", you are getting…

Honestly, that sounds like a sexed-up description of a SOC analyst. There's plenty of room to move up from there, but it's definitely not automatic.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#117

Post by Mirioron » Mon, May 20, 2019, 6:01 AM UTC

nick_kline wrote: post #110

gexla wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great pay. I know a lot of developers in the Philippines who make around USD $300 / month.

$300 a month is astoundingly low. What can they be doing for that amount of money, I'm amazed the cost is living is so low. If they got remote jobs to first world countries they could make 30 times as much if they could do java or c++.

It's difficult to get jobs like that though.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#118

Post by Mirioron » Mon, May 20, 2019, 6:07 AM UTC

SantalBlush wrote: post #67

crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

This is what bothers me about the concept of meritocracy. Sure, hard work is unquestionably a necessary component to success, but humans also require a large amount of capital investment (education, medicine, etc.) to reach their full potential; without that, they are doomed to the pool of unskilled labor. People are generally sorted into career hierarchies before they are even given a choice. What is the solution? I…

But I don't think that's really true in this day and age when it comes to programming. All the information to learn programming is out there. You have direct access to all of the lectures and materials of university courses.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#119

Post by NotSammyHagar » Mon, May 20, 2019, 6:21 AM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #12

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a sysad in a software business. Sure, the professional developers are paid well. However the more Jira and agile ideas takes over, you become more replaceable. Why? You're just a card-filling machine dealing with feature requests or problem reports. And sure, the next developer may fill less cards, but they will improve with time. And if you don't work in a protected area (federal, etc), then you can buy card-fil…

There will always be software development work that can’t be done that way because it requires specialized knowledge or cutting edge programming techniques.

Yes, like making handmade clothing, only certain cases require advanced skills like that. I think over time less and less work will require that handmade software. More can be done by putting other packages together. I've been luck to work on infrastructure work that has ended up having new ideas and advancements over existing systems that we could justify a new version. But I do feel like this opportunity to do new stuff could shrink. How many compilers, databases, os kernel writers do we need? The vast majority of people can make great use of an existing compiler, or database. Justifying making a new one should be hard.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#120

Post by NotSammyHagar » Mon, May 20, 2019, 6:24 AM UTC

masonhensley wrote: post #65

scarface74 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation?

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

Thanks for that. It's amazing to look at those median job salaries and try to understand how salaries vary so much, along with cost of living. I'm in one of the coastal tech hubs and we pay bachelor's degree people over 130k. An amazing amount, but way over that median.