Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 144 posts

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#101

Post by tjpnz »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

I would say that genetics have a large part to play. A certain proportion of the population just isn't wired to think this way, I don't think it's strictly an intelligence thing either. Some tests have been devised that do predict with some certainty which group a particular person belongs in but these are controversial - and it's understandable why.

The saddest part is dealing with those who weren't cut out to do this yet somehow ended up in the profession. They may well have missed their true calling in life and go on to wreak havoc in organizations where you get to witness their frustration and perpetual confusion on a daily basis.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#102

Post by richdev »

maxxxxx wrote: post #69
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

I would agree. In addition to abstract thinking being a software dev also means to be willing to put up with a lot of boring and tedious tasks most people would find extremely boring. Also, constantly learning new stuff is not everyone.

Yes, staying in software development, even as a trainer requires a daily and constant investment of time to advance. This is not something most people can keep up for decades on end. At 61 years old, I still maintain "a daily student schedule" to learn SOMETHING new every day with programming. I must study daily to keep advancing, or at least maintain "even position" with my peers, and not be passed by because things advance so fast in software and biotechnology.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#103

Post by richdev »

killjoywashere wrote: post #76

> Training, mentoring and counseling people — often from disadvantaged backgrounds — is not a mass-production process. Yes, yes it is. It literally is. Maybe you need some additional sorting of raw materials in, maybe the machines (the teachers, the mentors) have a relatively low number of cycles in their lifespan (number of students they can teach), maybe there's more sorting on the output (just like chips are sorte…

This is a nonsense answer. Total BS.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#104

Post by Buge »

wrong_variable wrote: post #96
BurningFrog wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend to everyone to get outside your tribe and comfort zones and spend real time with people who are genuinely different than you. For me, the biggest such time was being a conscript in my small European country. Not a great time, but holy shit, did it open my eyes to the existence of people I would never have thought were real! Emigrating to California was comparatively a mild culture shock. Turns out I had m…

> Emigrating to California was comparatively a mild culture shock. Turns out I had more in common with muslim Pakistani software engineers than farm boys from half an hour outside my home town. Are you are Muslim ? If I dropped you in the middle of Pakistan I am pretty sure you would have nothing in common with most people in Pakistan.

>Are you are Muslim ?

BurningFrog is not Muslim. BurningFrog was pointing out that religious difference between BurningFrog and BurningFrog's coworkers (muslim Pakistani software engineers).

>If I dropped you in the middle of Pakistan I am pretty sure you would have nothing in common with most people in Pakistan.

That's pretty much the point BurningFrog was making. BurningFrog has a lot of similarities with software engineers willing to move to California even if they're of different religions and nationalities. But BurningFrog was very different from "most people in" "[BurningFrog's] small European country". And BurningFrog is similarly very different from "most people in Pakistan".

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#105

Post by richdev »

marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

I agree with your hatred of the term "coding". It rings like "typing" or having typist skills. It demeans the many years of time it takes to learn real software engineering skills, which includes proper software requirements analysis, design, testing, packaging, and deployment.

I work with a bunch of data analysts teaching them programming for data analytics and machine learning. If I use the term "software development" the managers think it is out of scope for their job ("that's something IT does, not our group"). But when I use the term "coding" the managers don't seem to mind. They need to grow up and appreciate what it takes to develop analytics software.

I like what you said "apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own." These junior apprentices produce stuff that barely works, and it is rotting crap whose "technical debt" never disappears, and eventually requires a senior software engineer to rewrite it after it fails.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#107

Post by nick_kline »

richdev wrote: post #99
Jedi72 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude come on, theoretical physics is harder than plumbing. We dont need to leap to the defence of plumbers here.

This discussion is nonsensical. If a theoretical physicist is so over-educated that he can figure out how to parlay his skills and knowledge into a $200K+ job in Quant Phynance, insurance, or as a full-fledged Data Scientist, then he/she needs to reskill on street smarts.

It's not all about getting paid the most for some people. I think a challenge for the case of physicists that want to work in that field is that there are more of them than are jobs.

Compare to programmers (of all levels), where there is basically endless demand in most big cities, and in the top say 15 tech centers in the us probably a few 100k jobs are available in total. I'm sure Seattle has 50k jobs.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#108

Post by keiferski »

BadJokeReality wrote: post #85
seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

I work 9 to 6 on one of the most prestigious companies of the country, write high-quality C++ and Java for a complex domain almost on daily basis, and only make $15,000 a year. You people live in a great country.

Have you looked into working remotely? It can be tougher for international developers but there are companies out there that will pay American rates.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#109

Post by nick_kline »

caseymarquis wrote: post #88
seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

And here I am debugging TCP stacks, reverse engineering custom network protocols, writing ISRs in assembly, and doing fullstack, embedded, and native development while making that same amount. I feel underpaid. :(

It depends on where you are working and the industry you are working on. But if you are doing all of that, and not pay over 50k, it sounds like you are underpaid. The two factors that can lower salaries are lack of exposure to cs fundamentals and theory (usually because you don't have a degree), and working in a non-tech town where they don't pay as much.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#110

Post by nick_kline »

gexla wrote: post #98
BadJokeReality wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work 9 to 6 on one of the most prestigious companies of the country, write high-quality C++ and Java for a complex domain almost on daily basis, and only make $15,000 a year. You people live in a great country.

That's great pay. I know a lot of developers in the Philippines who make around USD $300 / month.

$300 a month is astoundingly low. What can they be doing for that amount of money, I'm amazed the cost is living is so low. If they got remote jobs to first world countries they could make 30 times as much if they could do java or c++.
Post reply on HN