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Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#81

Post by frankbreetz »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

I hope your friend was able to positively impact a few children's lives. It is a Nobel cause to do that sort of thing. I think the programming skill you are referring to it some combination of all of the above. Many very successful people come from poor backgrounds, but going to a good school and having a steady household certainly increase the odds of success

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#82

Post by rayiner »

jstewartmobile wrote: post #58
rayiner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The explosion in cost of living in places like SF has severely distorted peoples’ views of what is a reasonable salary in the vast majority of the country. $40k/year is a good salary almost anywhere in the US. It’s above the median starting salary for college graduates. For a couple, that’s probably $60,000-70,000 in household income. In my county you can get a 3BR house in a good school district for $200-230k, which…

" 3BR house in a good school district for $200-230k, which is affordable for a family making $60k " Maybe if you have no children, live in a low-tax area, have an awesome deal on homeowner's insurance and a fantastic health insurance plan, and neither you nor your spouse ever get laid-off or injured. Otherwise, that's cutting it pretty close.

With 10% down at today’s rates a $230,000 house will cost you $1,200 per month in mortgage, taxes, and home insurance. Little bit less with the mortgage interest deduction and real estate tax deduction. The rule of thumb is 36% of gross income, which is $2,000 on $70,000. The rule of thumb cuts it close, but this is well below that—20% of gross income.

Net pay on $70,000 in Maryland for a married couple is $4,750 per month. (Maryland is not a low tax state.) At that wage level, your job quite likely includes health insurance. (Excluding people who are on Medicaid, Medicare, or military insurance, 84% of people in Maryland have insurance through their employer.) But let’s pretend it doesn’t. For a family of four with two kids making $70,000, an ACA Silver plan in Maryland is $538. About $1,700 for housing and health insurance combined, leaving almost $3,000 a month for saving and other expenses. That’s a very comfortable middle class life.

Say your earnings are split $40k/$30k, a typical split for a married couple. The higher earning person losing their job will reduce the household income to $50,000, raising the housing expense to 29%—still within an acceptable range.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#83

Post by Jedi72 »

neilv wrote: post #73
nostrademons wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's talking about the skill level, defined roughly as how much background knowledge you need to perform the job + how much judgment & concentration + how much creative/analytical thought. This doesn't necessarily correlate with either remuneration or work environment. There are plumbers in the Bay Area who make more than a theoretical physics post-doc and deal with a lot less stress, but most people would ag…

I don't think plumber vs. theoretical physics post-doc is a great example. Plumbing is critical skilled work, taking years to master, and is paid accordingly. I imagine plumbing is also very stressful, at times, such as when you're being careful not to flood a building, or avoiding breaking something that would require ripping open a floor to fix. Though plumbing guild training sounds not entirely different than acad…

Dude come on, theoretical physics is harder than plumbing. We dont need to leap to the defence of plumbers here.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#84

Post by jstewartmobile »

rayiner wrote: post #82
jstewartmobile wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" 3BR house in a good school district for $200-230k, which is affordable for a family making $60k " Maybe if you have no children, live in a low-tax area, have an awesome deal on homeowner's insurance and a fantastic health insurance plan, and neither you nor your spouse ever get laid-off or injured. Otherwise, that's cutting it pretty close.

With 10% down at today’s rates a $230,000 house will cost you $1,200 per month in mortgage, taxes, and home insurance. Little bit less with the mortgage interest deduction and real estate tax deduction. The rule of thumb is 36% of gross income, which is $2,000 on $70,000. The rule of thumb cuts it close, but this is well below that—20% of gross income. Net pay on $70,000 in Maryland for a married couple is $4,750 per…

Original was "affordable for a family making $60k"

Drop the fam back to $60k, and that "$3,000 a month for saving and other expenses" drops to $2167--and I would put special emphasis on "expenses": few hundred a month for vehicles, a few hundred for groceries, occasional co-pays (that can get pretty big as you get older and have more things wrong with you), emergency repairs, school clothes, etc.

There will probably be some left over if both parents are employed--not a lot though. I guarantee that the average family will go deep into the red if mom or pop are unemployed for more than a few months in the $200k house + $60k/yr combined scenario.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#85

Post by BadJokeReality »

seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

I work 9 to 6 on one of the most prestigious companies of the country, write high-quality C++ and Java for a complex domain almost on daily basis, and only make $15,000 a year.

You people live in a great country.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#86

Post by aj-4 »

chillfox wrote: post #57
crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

My guess would be a mindset learned early + the impact of being poor (food, clothing, shelter).

who doesn't have food clothing and shelter in the US?

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#87

Post by nitrogen »

madengr wrote: post #54
Kinnard wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you able to assess what they are capable of?

He teaches them. In my experience, only a few people in an undergrad EE EM class understand divergence and curl. Those that don’t probably won’t do well in certain EE disciplines.

When I was a young kid I came across a mini golf game for the computer (can't remember which platform, could have been Atari 130XE, IBM PC XT, or Apple iigs) that represented sloped surfaces as vector fields. So I knew if there were arrows pointing left, my golf ball going right would slow down and roll back to the left.

That kind of early exposure made it much easier to understand vector fields later on.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#88

Post by caseymarquis »

seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

And here I am debugging TCP stacks, reverse engineering custom network protocols, writing ISRs in assembly, and doing fullstack, embedded, and native development while making that same amount.

I feel underpaid. :(

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#89

Post by throwawaytoday5 »

BadJokeReality wrote: post #85
seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

I work 9 to 6 on one of the most prestigious companies of the country, write high-quality C++ and Java for a complex domain almost on daily basis, and only make $15,000 a year. You people live in a great country.

Are you willing to say what country and what company you work for?

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#90

Post by [deleted] »

throwawaytoday5 wrote: post #89
BadJokeReality wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work 9 to 6 on one of the most prestigious companies of the country, write high-quality C++ and Java for a complex domain almost on daily basis, and only make $15,000 a year. You people live in a great country.

Are you willing to say what country and what company you work for?

[deleted]
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