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Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#61

Post by gumby »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

Not genetics usually but rather simply screwed up educational system system that discourages thought

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#62

Post by Phlarp »

scarface74 wrote: post #48
seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is quite simple for a software pro, but light years beyond what someone untrained could do. Most WordPress sites I’ve seen for small businesses are using some type of managed services where the person isn’t dealing with the server.

Still plenty of room for custom configuration and plugins. Lots of things people want that you can charge for outside of VPS administration.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#63

Post by kitotik »

p1necone wrote: post #60
crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

I wouldn't be surprised if abstract thought/problem solving and critical thinking need to be taught quite young to stick. Sort of similar to how much easier it is for young children to learn new languages compared to adults.

Just having the social, familial, and cultural freedom and encouragement to practice abstract thought would be an important first step, otherwise the teaching isn’t very effective.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#64

Post by shard972 »

gumby wrote: post #61
crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

Not genetics usually but rather simply screwed up educational system system that discourages thought

Genetics is a more reliable predictor for IQ than childhood education.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#65

Post by masonhensley »

scarface74 wrote: post #51
adventured wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The typical tech job is more like someone getting paid 30k a year to delete porn from Facebook or draw boxes around pictures of stop signs. No it's not. There are approximately ~1.3 million people in the US doing software development at extremely high income levels for the top 3/4. Median pay $107,000. 840,000 computer support specialists ('tech support') earning a median of $54,000. 600,000 computer systems analys…

Citation?

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#66

Post by shortoncash »

gumby wrote: post #61
crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

Not genetics usually but rather simply screwed up educational system system that discourages thought

So true. Always takes a bit of a spark to free your mind from the way the educational system makes you do things. Once you get away from the comfort of routine and embrace the danger of thinking in ways that the machine likes to discourage, the sky's the limit.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#67

Post by SantalBlush »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

This is what bothers me about the concept of meritocracy. Sure, hard work is unquestionably a necessary component to success, but humans also require a large amount of capital investment (education, medicine, etc.) to reach their full potential; without that, they are doomed to the pool of unskilled labor. People are generally sorted into career hierarchies before they are even given a choice.

What is the solution? I haven't a clue. Maybe an education system similar to Germany's, though I doubt that would catch on in the US.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#68

Post by frankbreetz »

gumby wrote: post #61
crazygringo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

Not genetics usually but rather simply screwed up educational system system that discourages thought

This may be true to a degree, but there is certainly some genetics to it too

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#69

Post by maxxxxx »

frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

I would agree. In addition to abstract thinking being a software dev also means to be willing to put up with a lot of boring and tedious tasks most people would find extremely boring. Also, constantly learning new stuff is not everyone.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#70

Post by geodel »

ardit33 wrote: post #24
geodel wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Development is not line work, and doing it like line work creates unmaintainable, expensive crap. Huh, it is already happening. I see everyday so many web services are created via auto generating scaffolding tools like Spring boot etc. One just fill in environment details, bits of JSON parsing and service is ready to be deployed. Good for you that where you work people are intelligent enough to read Fred Brooks. Mo…

Great, looks like you have discovered "That one trick that all engineers hate!" If all it took was some scafolding, some database columns and some html and sprinkle, you should be a millionare by now?

Well I am arguing it is all 'factory' work. And factory workers do not become millionaires. Are you saying they do?
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