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Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#51

Post by scarface74 »

adventured wrote: post #46
Alex3917 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job The typical tech job is more like someone getting paid 30k a year to delete porn from Facebook or draw boxes around pictures of stop signs.

> The typical tech job is more like someone getting paid 30k a year to delete porn from Facebook or draw boxes around pictures of stop signs. No it's not. There are approximately ~1.3 million people in the US doing software development at extremely high income levels for the top 3/4. Median pay $107,000. 840,000 computer support specialists ('tech support') earning a median of $54,000. 600,000 computer systems analys…

Citation?

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#52

Post by llamaz »

blahblahthrow wrote: post #28
colordrops wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like manufacturing jobs, some software work could be completed by uneducated felons, and some work could only be done by PhD specialists. In fact I work at such a place that has an extremely wide gamut of both software engineers and production staff.

It's cool how nobody with a PhD ever committed a crime and only worthless, stupid people do crimes.

this but unironically. If I was Javert from Les Miserables the novel would last 10 pages because Javert didn't hate felons as much as I do

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#53

Post by crankylinuxuser »

catmanjan wrote: post #37
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a sysad in a software business. Sure, the professional developers are paid well. However the more Jira and agile ideas takes over, you become more replaceable. Why? You're just a card-filling machine dealing with feature requests or problem reports. And sure, the next developer may fill less cards, but they will improve with time. And if you don't work in a protected area (federal, etc), then you can buy card-fil…

Thats a funny way to look at it - if anything a sysadmin is more of a line worker (I do both dev and sysadmin so I'm not particularly invested in either), with enough software you could be replaced by BA's coming up with architecture requirements and a system like docker... Just a perspective thing I wonder

Peculairly enough, ive had our management ask how to show what we do, and how we allocate out time. And as many times we have ticket after ticket from Jira, nothing adequately shows how we work.

That's why I equated Sysads as service workers. Some assistance may be 5m, and others may have looked like a 10m issue but turns into 3h timesink. We're serving others, or serving machines for serving others.

Whereas I see Agile, or the Kanban system, to be set up to send work to either internal or external devs. The only reason why real factories don't use international work is because sending lines and parts is onerous on a short cycle... Whereas software Kanban seems fit for each other.

Sure there's dev work that requires specialty knowledge, but most dev work is a CRUD web app with a DB backend. And those jobs are especially prone to outsourced via a thousand cuts.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#54

Post by madengr »

Kinnard wrote: post #30
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

How are you able to assess what they are capable of?

He teaches them. In my experience, only a few people in an undergrad EE EM class understand divergence and curl. Those that don’t probably won’t do well in certain EE disciplines.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#55

Post by povertyworld »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

When I first got interested in tech it was called "being a geek". Now with the broification of tech, and the influx of people from cultures that optimize solely for income and prestige rather than passion, it seems to be forgotten that some people are just geeks and some (most) aren't.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#56

Post by golemiprague »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

If only someone taught your friend about the concept of IQ and worst, the different distribution of said IQ among different groups in the population. But we can't say that loud so each one of us will have to go and teach "disadvantaged" kids to figure it out. To save you the wondering, yes, there are genetic differences which affect the max potential and social/environmental differences which affect how much of this potential someone will fulfil.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#57

Post by chillfox »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

My guess would be a mindset learned early + the impact of being poor (food, clothing, shelter).

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#58

Post by jstewartmobile »

rayiner wrote: post #43
javagram wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Costco jobs are an outlier in retail as I understand it. $40k/ year in Georgia may be a liveable salary, and if this is an entry level job for him there’s probably the possibility to increase that salary by a 1.5x factor or more over 5 years if he can continue career growth (not sure exactly what a cybersecurity job path looks like, but I assume there is some upward mobility or increased ability to transfer to other…

The explosion in cost of living in places like SF has severely distorted peoples’ views of what is a reasonable salary in the vast majority of the country. $40k/year is a good salary almost anywhere in the US. It’s above the median starting salary for college graduates. For a couple, that’s probably $60,000-70,000 in household income. In my county you can get a 3BR house in a good school district for $200-230k, which…

"3BR house in a good school district for $200-230k, which is affordable for a family making $60k"

Maybe if you have no children, live in a low-tax area, have an awesome deal on homeowner's insurance and a fantastic health insurance plan, and neither you nor your spouse ever get laid-off or injured.

Otherwise, that's cutting it pretty close.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#59

Post by BurningFrog »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

I recommend to everyone to get outside your tribe and comfort zones and spend real time with people who are genuinely different than you.

For me, the biggest such time was being a conscript in my small European country. Not a great time, but holy shit, did it open my eyes to the existence of people I would never have thought were real!

Emigrating to California was comparatively a mild culture shock. Turns out I had more in common with muslim Pakistani software engineers than farm boys from half an hour outside my home town.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#60

Post by p1necone »

crazygringo wrote: post #45
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed. A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids. He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to…

I wouldn't be surprised if abstract thought/problem solving and critical thinking need to be taught quite young to stick. Sort of similar to how much easier it is for young children to learn new languages compared to adults.
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