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Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

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Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#101

Post by wallace_f »

shrikant wrote: post #96
verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

You say > Such arguments are usually emotional [...] But start off your comment with > I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. I guess I'm struggling to see the non-emotional component of your feeling disconcerted. Would you mind clarifying?

To a large extent, I guess isn't almost everything emotional? Even our entire monetary system, as scientific as we prefer to call it, is ultimately a kind of emotional accounting system for merits deserved, and debts owed.

But what I think the author meant was what I hear colloquially when people say others are "thinking emotionally:" that they're relying on a first-order emotional reaction.

So I guess living in an extreme surveillance state is also bad because we feel like we want humanity to continue to to live with prosperity, dignity, and liberty... And that's arguably a more-compelling thought than disagreeing because in the short-term, one life could be saved.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#102

Post by Dylan16807 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #37
doesnt_know wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A decade or two (probably less) and health insurance will plug your details into some shared DNA database and automatically disqualify you because your genetics predispose you to a laundry list of conditions, not worth the risk. Or, we will cover you but not for these genetic disorders as they are considered "preexisting conditions".

Affordable Care Act does not allow for discrimination based on pre existing conditions in the US.

That part of the law is in an extremely fragile state.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#103

Post by nosianu »

bpchaps wrote: post #94
qwsxyh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is only about dead me. It's my body.

Do you seriously think that you're the only person who cares about what happens to your body after you die? Would you be perfectly okay if somebody dug up your mother's body and did $AWFUL_THING with it?

How about we stick to the topic at hand or at least in its vicinity instead of building "insert some very imaginative and awful story that is meant to appeal to emotion but has no basis in the topic being discussed" straw man?

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#104

Post by Dylan16807 »

ebg13 wrote: post #27
carbocation wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well were the participants informed about how warrants would be used to access their information?

The state has decided that you don't need to be informed in advance that a warrant will let them search through your things. The whole point of a warrant is that it lets them search. "I didn't know they could look inside my bag" isn't a legal defense.

This isn't about a defense. It's about looking through the bags of tens of thousands of people with absolutely zero evidence pointing toward those bags or their owners. If there was a type of bag that made the contents subject to dragnet warrants, it would definitely be wrong to sell those bags without informed consent.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#105

Post by shrikant »

wallace_f wrote: post #101
shrikant wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say > Such arguments are usually emotional [...] But start off your comment with > I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. I guess I'm struggling to see the non-emotional component of your feeling disconcerted. Would you mind clarifying?

To a large extent, I guess isn't almost everything emotional? Even our entire monetary system, as scientific as we prefer to call it, is ultimately a kind of emotional accounting system for merits deserved, and debts owed. But what I think the author meant was what I hear colloquially when people say others are "thinking emotionally:" that they're relying on a first-order emotional reaction. So I guess living in an e…

Yes, this was my read as well, but parent commenter was implying that an emotional argument by itself isn't good enough in face of (presumably) more logical/rational arguments (in this case, against a surveillance state).

But parent's original point about having ones remains "violated" was in itself a first-order emotional reaction. So I suppose my point is that I'm not quite seeing why their emotional response is more valid than other people's emotional responses -- presumably they've left the non-emotional part of their reaction as an "exercise for the reader"?

I don't really know, and would be interested to understand correctly (more for my edification than anything else -- I'm not great at grokking people's intentions most times).

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#106

Post by mkl »

IshKebab wrote: post #95
mkl wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there was reason to suspect him, so could they not have looked at the evidence from his other crimes?

That crime was several years later.

Yes. I guess the earlier case was cold. The link was there to find, but they only found it much later.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#107

Post by jfk13 »

ljf wrote: post #88
droithomme wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why police gather all kinds of evidence and present it to a jury. There was no jury evaluating evidence and deciding guilt or innocence in this case. There was also no case. Only a proclamation of guilt against a man who died long ago and had no ability to defend himself, no defense attorney assigned, no arguments made before a jury whatsoever. The only "forensic" evidence made by some dodgy startup pushing…

Did you not read that they dug him up to do a full dna analysis to compare to seen found in the victims underwear? And that there was other evidence to link him which is what led to the permission to exhume him? The only reason that this wasn't taken further is as he was dead.

The issue remains, though, that if he were alive all this evidence would result in a trial -- at which the prosecution would have had to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt. The accused would have the opportunity to defend himself, to have legal representation, to present evidence that might call into question or contradict aspects of the prosecution's case, etc.

As it stands, it seems that due process has been bypassed.

I'm troubled by the idea that in the case of a dead defendant, it's OK to bring in a guilty verdict on the basis of an entirely one-sided "trial".

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#108

Post by hrktb »

mikeash wrote: post #4
verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? I see no problem with exhuming a corpse to solve a murder case as long as there’s probable cause and a warrant, which there was here.

It’s just moving the issue to the family. Cremating a body basically became a privacy/security best practice I guess.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#109

Post by Fnoord »

vkou wrote: post #59
mikeash wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? I see no problem with exhuming a corpse to solve a murder case as long as there’s probable cause and a warrant, which there was here.

> If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? Because our society believes in body autonomy, to the point that it won't use your body's organs to save other human beings, without your express consent. Your body is your property, and it takes a damn good reason for someone else to access your property, contrary to your will.

> Because our society believes in body autonomy, to the point that it won't use your body's organs to save other human beings, without your express consent.

> Your body is your property, and it takes a damn good reason for someone else to access your property, contrary to your will.

The way I see it, we're a guest on the planet, and after we are done for, there's a few things we leave behind: our direct ancestors (family), our indirect ancestors (mankind) and our planet as a whole (Earth with its inhabitants) many of whom are important for the planet's ecosystem. We should ensure that after we are done for, these living organisms survive and lead a happy and healthy life.

Now, I'm of the opinion that our justice system is relevant for society. It allows Earth's inhabitants to lead a happy and healthy life. This is particularly true for crimes such as murder/killing which have a deep impact on society. So if this heavy crime can be solved using the help of a deceased one, I'm all for that. Even if it involves force or naysayers.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#110

Post by wallace_f »

shrikant wrote: post #105
wallace_f wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a large extent, I guess isn't almost everything emotional? Even our entire monetary system, as scientific as we prefer to call it, is ultimately a kind of emotional accounting system for merits deserved, and debts owed. But what I think the author meant was what I hear colloquially when people say others are "thinking emotionally:" that they're relying on a first-order emotional reaction. So I guess living in an e…

Yes, this was my read as well, but parent commenter was implying that an emotional argument by itself isn't good enough in face of (presumably) more logical/rational arguments (in this case, against a surveillance state). But parent's original point about having ones remains "violated" was in itself a first-order emotional reaction. So I suppose my point is that I'm not quite seeing why their emotional response is mo…

In other words, it's not a problem that it is emotionally-motivated, but that it relied solely on emotional intuition without considering second-...n-number consequences.
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