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Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

joshcarter.com

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Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#81

Post by saagarjha »

meuk wrote: post #70
larkeith wrote: post #12

Most of this is good, but one real WTF: "Editor Flailing It’s funny how many people can’t edit text on any machine but their own. I tend to interview people on a laptop running Ubuntu, and I open gedit for them to use, with the offer that they can use any other Unix editor they like. Most can barely navigate gedit, and it’s stupid simple. Don’t ever let yourself get hung up on the editor. If you can’t figure out the…

Letting a windows programmer use vi in an interview is just cruel. I mean, I like vim after months of practice, but just exiting vi(m) is notoriously hard for a newbie.

Being able to use vim at a basic level doesn't really take all that long to learn. Sure, there's the memes about vim being impossible to escape, but it's really not that hard to learn how to do so.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#82

Post by detaro »

walshemj wrote: post #78
yoz-y wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe todays programming field is vast enough that you can actually have a really good engineer that never needed to touch a command line editor. An iOS or android developer with 8 years of experience for example. Other front-end positions too. I love vi and set it as editing mode everywhere, nevertheless I accept that it might not be something people actively seek. If I was looking for a unix server admin then I…

not for realy good Engineer in my book.

Why is "unix server administration in an environment that doesn't have other options" such a critical skill for all engineers? Or why else is vim experience required? Sure, many are going to have it, but it doesn't mean anything in itself.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#83

Post by thih9 »

Looks like the author favours candidates that are able to adapt to his hiring process.

I think this approach results in too many false negatives. I prefer adapting my hiring process, asking questions and/or helping.

I feel that this makes it easier for the candidate to demonstrate their skills. Staying humble helps too.

EDIT: it’s possible that this article doesn’t represent author’s current opinion; we should add „(2010)” to the title.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#84

Post by ekzy »

> It’s funny how many people can’t edit text on any machine but their own. I tend to interview people on a laptop running Ubuntu, and I open gedit for them to use, with the offer that they can use any other Unix editor they like. Most can barely navigate gedit, and it’s stupid simple.

No, it's not funny. Accessibility is important, what if, for example, the person is used to a different keyboard layout?

I would always encourage people to use their own machine and setup. If a programmer is uncomfortable on a different machine that might just stress them out and ruin the interview.

Also, you could be missing out on some hidden skills. I could show off some ninja moves in sublime text or emacs, or in my customised shell, but I'm pretty sure I'd suck on a fresh ubuntu in Gedit.

I agree that most programmers should be able to ssh into a server and edit a file without any issue, but that's different from completing a programming task. It's like testing if a tennis player can ace a serve with a golf club.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#85

Post by panpanna »

yoz-y wrote: post #69
panpanna wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very easy way to find the 0.5x engineer. But I agree, it should not be a show stopper. (Emacs and vscode user here)

I believe todays programming field is vast enough that you can actually have a really good engineer that never needed to touch a command line editor. An iOS or android developer with 8 years of experience for example. Other front-end positions too. I love vi and set it as editing mode everywhere, nevertheless I accept that it might not be something people actively seek. If I was looking for a unix server admin then I…

The point is, a good engineer is always curious and as such has gathered a lot of knowledge about other fields. Maybe he is a unix server admin that writes iOS app on his own time just for fun? Maybe he is a data scientist that also enjoys UI design?

A bad engineer is happy that he has learned framework X and doesn't feel he needs to learn anything else.

Putting the Linux admin candidate in front of an xcode window is a quick and to find out where he stands. If he looks totally lost, he is definitely a 10x guy.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#86

Post by frutiger »

leadingthenet wrote: post #33
SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s kind of weird to NOT know basic vi/vim if you get to a certain point in your career. If you can’t at least open the software, go into insert mode, and save/quit, have you ever had to ssh into a remote server and edit a config file before? Only excuse I could think of is if you literally did everything in windows for your entire career.

Yeap. Even the hard-core Emacs fanboys at my work know a few basic vi/vim commands. I mean, you're almost certainly going to use it at some point in your career, might as well learn "i -> type something -> :wq" at the very least.

Don’t forget the or ^] to get back into normal mode.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#87

Post by eitland »

trickstra wrote: post #47
sklivvz1971 wrote: post #20

A few more things: 1) Be humble. Don't expect people to take it easy on you because you got street cred (You are a ruby contributor? You still need to show them how good you are at coding Ruby). Many people with creds get offended when they realize they are not as good as their credentials would imply. 2) Know yourself. Most candidates I've seen, including myself, encounter a moment in the interview where they get hi…

ad 1.) yes, being a contributor doesn't automatically make you good programmer. But having 7 years of coding practice in several companies kinda does, because why else would those companies have you for so long? Yet these programming interviews are required even for them. Probation period is much much more telling about a programmer than the 15 minute coding task.

> But having 7 years of coding practice in several companies kinda does, because why else would those companies have you for so long?

Several jobs in 7 years might very well imply several companies gave that person a chance and then gave up.

I often got questions about that years ago, and it was completely reasonable, at one point I'd worked in 4 different positions in 5 years. (There were good reasons for it and I had good references so I just explained it and it was OK, but I can easily see why they asked.)

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#88

Post by ex_amazon_sde »

larkeith wrote: post #12

Most of this is good, but one real WTF: "Editor Flailing It’s funny how many people can’t edit text on any machine but their own. I tend to interview people on a laptop running Ubuntu, and I open gedit for them to use, with the offer that they can use any other Unix editor they like. Most can barely navigate gedit, and it’s stupid simple. Don’t ever let yourself get hung up on the editor. If you can’t figure out the…

> Talk about an arbitrary condition.

I've interviewed a lot of people in Amazon and always offered choice between at least 4 editors.

If you cannot pass a coding challenge the problem is not in the editor.

Did you read the next sentence? The Windows guy that chose to use vi was hired.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#89

Post by photonios »

sklivvz1971 wrote: post #20

A few more things: 1) Be humble. Don't expect people to take it easy on you because you got street cred (You are a ruby contributor? You still need to show them how good you are at coding Ruby). Many people with creds get offended when they realize they are not as good as their credentials would imply. 2) Know yourself. Most candidates I've seen, including myself, encounter a moment in the interview where they get hi…

#1 does not make always sense to me. Open-source authors and contributors have their work out in the open. You can see their work, the way they interact with others online. Would you reject Guido van Rossum if he can't solve your whiteboard problem? Assuming he's suited for the job, his work speaks for itself.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#90

Post by eitland »

bitL wrote: post #73
GordonS wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's such a simple task, but in reality it's a fantastic way to weed out those that really don't have a clue what they're doing. Saves a lot of time interviewing.

...unless the person you are interviewing decides you are childish, immediately walks away and doesn't respond to your mail ever again, and your business goes belly up as you can't find anyone on the market with the skills that person was bringing, essential to your business. Frankly, not sure why anyone competent in the current climate should take you seriously if you attempted that. It's equivalent to asking a part…

> ...unless the person you are interviewing decides you are childish, immediately walks away and doesn't respond to your mail ever again,

...in that case they just proved they were childish and I'd be happy to avoid working with them.

> and your business goes belly up as you can't find anyone on the market with the skills that person was bringing, essential to your business.

I think you are overestimating the value of childish ex-FAANGs :-)

If someone is too full of themselves to write a FizzBuzz once they are too full of themselves for a number of other tasks as well.

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