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Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

joshcarter.com

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Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#61

Post by fit2rule »

spyspy wrote: post #3

> So, your code isn’t working, what do you do? Stare blankly at the monitor? This always gets me. When the interviewer asks a question, the correct answer is literally never, “let me think about it quietly for a moment”. This is one of the disconnects between interview programming and real programming people get frustrated over.

When I interview people, and they get stuck on a programming problem like this, I tell them "it is completely acceptable for you to show me your Google fu to overcome this problem".

Google-fu is just as important a skill as knowing how to exit vi.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#62

Post by GordonS »

choppaface wrote: post #45

Oof, this is pretty antithetical to hiring. Author seems pretty frustrated. I hope this guy takes a long vacation. If I’m a candidate, I’d say this guy is clearly way overworked and I’d bail. Good points, but the volume of negative sadly speaks louder than the rationality of the points. I see there being two parts to an SWE interview: 1) What experience does the candidate bring? Do they have compatible core competenc…

This is mostly agreeable, but you do need to actually test the competencies the candidate says they have.

As someone that's done aot of hiring, I can concur with the author that there are many poor candidates out there, many who grossly "stretch the truth" about their capabilities and experiences. Unless you want to be lumbered with a dud, some kind of practical test is a must.

> It’s time to stop discriminating for the wrong reasons

I wasn't sure what you meant was the discriminating factor here?

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#63

Post by trickstra »

battletested wrote: post #46

So author, who are you? You start already with an authoritarian touch. What makes you believe you are not an incompetent interviewer? How can an applicant assess your skills, you could easily be the greatest fuck up in the company. Is your company really that cool that I should want to die to work there? Did you first weed out all the incompetent staff that is duck sitting there playing business politics? IMAO most c…

the title should have the (2010) appended to it. And just judging by the website, the author is a 3d printing nerd with interest in weird keyboards and wrote a sudoku solver in 2012: https://github.com/joshcarter

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#64

Post by GordonS »

bartread wrote: post #51
bitL wrote: post #10

- "Hey, I worked at FAANG or better, creating latest super-duper tech you use daily, was featured on TV, got multiple awards etc." - "Let's see if you can do Fizz Buzz!"

> - "Let's see if you can do Fizz Buzz!" Yes, exactly. I'd like to verify that you can string a few lines of code together to solve a trivially simple problem. This is not an unreasonable ask, and I really don't care how impressive your CV is. If you can't solve fizzbuzz you're not going to be able to solve any of the much more complicated problems we wrestle with on a day to day basis.

It's such a simple task, but in reality it's a fantastic way to weed out those that really don't have a clue what they're doing. Saves a lot of time interviewing.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#65

Post by ordinaryperson »

> If you say you’re a master of network protocols, guess what, I’ve maintained a TCP/IP stack, and unless you’re really a master I’m going to bury you.

The goal of interviewing is never under any circumstances to "bury" someone with obscure, difficult questions. Even as the OP is obviously impressed with his own skill set ("I've maintained a TCP/IP stack") I'm sure someone coming from a different vantage point could stump him easily, there's too many nooks & crannies of a field that vast.

> I’ve interviewed several people that couldn’t write Fibonacci sequence. I’d tell them what it was and write on the whiteboard the first ten numbers so they could see it. They’d start typing and immediately go into the weeds.

There's a lot of pressure in the live format to produce right away. Maybe you should consider take-homes instead of instantly assuming the candidates lack your superior communication and abstract reasoning skills?

> Don’t make me point out cases where your code breaks.

Right. I'm sure you've never written a bug in your life -- especially as a C programmer.

> I tend to interview people on a laptop running Ubuntu, and I open gedit for them to use, with the offer that they can use any other Unix editor they like.

I run Ubuntu desktop but why throw someone out of their comfort zone? Just ask them to bring a machine, or remote into a Google Hangout. The point of the interview is not to surprise candidates in unknown environments then feel superior because they don't know what you know.

> ...I ask if you’ve got questions for me, and you say, “so what does your company do?” the interview is over.

If it's cheapfurnaces.com, sure. But most companies it's not completely obvious what the company does exactly, even if you browse the company website or LinkedIn -- don't be so snide in your assumptions the candidates did no research on the company first, maybe they're just not articulate in their phrasing when asking what exactly a company does. They applied for a developer role, not to be CEO. This seems like an arrogant position to take.

> I’m not trying to beat up candidates because I’m a sadist, I’m looking for people I want to work with.

There's also a fair amount of chest-beating going on here, IMHO. The OP doesn't just want to assess the skill level of the candidates he simultaneously wants to assert his own perceived superiority ("most programming job applicants suck").

OP should consider acting more humble and try to demonstrate more empathy toward others -- often it's not the candidates "sucks" but his or her particular skill set or career level isn't ideally suited to the open role.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#66

Post by nemetroid »

GordonS wrote: post #52
MayeulC wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's everywhere. It almost litterally is. Even busybox contains a vi clone. While I have encountered more systems without nano nor Emacs than I can remember. Plus, there is no excuse for learning the basic set of commands: i,ESC,x,u, and maybe navigating with the letters (which I'm not proficient at).

I only have to edit a file on Linux once every couple of months of so - I tired of forgetting how to exit vi (or enter/exit edit mode, save the file... just about anything really), so started installing nano as the first thing I do on any system. Nano is so much more obvious than vi.

Most people can't install arbitrary software on every system they access.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#67

Post by noir_lord »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #24
emidln wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great reason to learn vi for basic editing tasks. It's everywhere. Even if you typically use a different editor/ide, vi is a common ground. Disclosure: I'm an emacs user

It’s kind of weird to NOT know basic vi/vim if you get to a certain point in your career. If you can’t at least open the software, go into insert mode, and save/quit, have you ever had to ssh into a remote server and edit a config file before? Only excuse I could think of is if you literally did everything in windows for your entire career.

Been using Linux since the 90's and opening, editing and saving is exactly what I know in vi.

All that does is remind me that I haven't set nano as the default editor on that box and then I move on.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#68

Post by crusso »

wccrawford wrote: post #23
bitL wrote: post #10

- "Hey, I worked at FAANG or better, creating latest super-duper tech you use daily, was featured on TV, got multiple awards etc." - "Let's see if you can do Fizz Buzz!"

I worked with a guy that had FAANG on his resume, and we ended up letting him go because he couldn't actually do real programming for a device from that same company. He flailed for months to get simple things done, and failed. Just having worked somewhere doesn't mean you actually did well there.

Having worked at a FAANG, I can concur. Sure, some of the developers were world class. Some of them, though, had been there for years just kind of "lost in the sauce".

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#69

Post by yoz-y »

panpanna wrote: post #49
yoz-y wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing vi basics is useful, I agree. However, for interviews I really don't think that putting a candidate who is not familiar with it is a nice thing to do. Any modeless editor should not cause trouble but vi (especially) is quite pernicious and the candidate would be just losing time.

It's a very easy way to find the 0.5x engineer. But I agree, it should not be a show stopper. (Emacs and vscode user here)

I believe todays programming field is vast enough that you can actually have a really good engineer that never needed to touch a command line editor. An iOS or android developer with 8 years of experience for example. Other front-end positions too.

I love vi and set it as editing mode everywhere, nevertheless I accept that it might not be something people actively seek. If I was looking for a unix server admin then I would definitely assume they know vi.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#70

Post by meuk »

larkeith wrote: post #12

Most of this is good, but one real WTF: "Editor Flailing It’s funny how many people can’t edit text on any machine but their own. I tend to interview people on a laptop running Ubuntu, and I open gedit for them to use, with the offer that they can use any other Unix editor they like. Most can barely navigate gedit, and it’s stupid simple. Don’t ever let yourself get hung up on the editor. If you can’t figure out the…

Letting a windows programmer use vi in an interview is just cruel. I mean, I like vim after months of practice, but just exiting vi(m) is notoriously hard for a newbie.
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